From: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com (utah-firearms-digest) To: utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: utah-firearms-digest V2 #13 Reply-To: utah-firearms-digest Sender: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk utah-firearms-digest Thursday, January 15 1998 Volume 02 : Number 013 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 16:44:47 -0700 From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: RNC/ Democrats Return Money / FEC Reports Online -Forwarded Received: from web185c.bbnplanet.com (web185c.bbnplanet.com [207.121.186.185]) by web185c.bbnplanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA23635; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 14:57:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from BRONZE.RNC.ORG by BRONZE.RNC.ORG (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 16172 for PRESSLIST@BRONZE.RNC.ORG; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 14:56:24 -0800 Received: from web185c.bbnplanet.com (web185c.bbnplanet.com [207.121.186.185]) by web185c.bbnplanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA23528 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 14:56:22 -0800 (PST) Approved-By: shenry2@IX.NETCOM.COM Received: from dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.3]) by web185c.bbnplanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA23509 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 14:52:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id QAA01706 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 16:58:37 -0600 (CST) Received: from unknown(207.94.140.67) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma001690; Fri Jan 9 16:58:34 1998 X-Sender: shenry2@popd.ix.netcom.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980109230013.0098c244@popd.ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 18:00:13 -0500 Reply-To: Sean Henry Sender: RNC Press List From: Sean Henry Subject: RNC/ Democrats Return Money / FEC Reports Online To: Multiple recipients of list PRESSLIST IN CASE YOU MISSED IT... January 9, 1998 DEMOCRAT CAMPAIGN FINANCE SCANDAL SHIFTS FROM PACIFIC RIM TO THE MIDDLE EAST! The Democratic National Committee has once again been forced to return a huge chunk of apparently illegal money, this time from the Middle East. "Absolute serendipity," is how lawyers for an Ohio company describe a $100,000 donation to the DNC -- the same week American diplomats helped arrange a meeting between the company's lobbyists and top Saudi Arabian government officials. Transcripts from an Ohio court case obtained by The Cleveland Plain Dealer show that lobbyists for Global Resources Management, Inc. arranged "meetings with members of the royal (Saudi) family," in August, 1996 with the help of the U.S. Embassy in Saudi Arabia. As the Associated Press reported January 8: "On August 12, 1996, Global Resources gave the DNC a $100,000 check at a fund-raiser for President Clinton's birthday. Testimony from Mohamed El-Naggar, an Egyptian national who co-owns the company, indicated the $100,000 was money he had given to Global." The State Department "declined to comment," on the AP report, which included testomony from Global Resources lobbyist David Wimer: "Wimer said he and fellow Global Resources lobbyist, former Democratic Rep. Steve Solarz of New York, met with Saudi Defense and Aviation Minister Prince Sultan in August, 1996." Despite the apparent illegality of the donation, the DNC hung on to the $100,000 for as long as possible: "The DNC returned the money after the testimony was reported, citing 'lingering uncertainty' about the source of the contribution." The report raises new and unanswered questions: 1) Did anyone at the DNC contact the State Department in the Global Resources case, like former DNC Chairman Don Fowler contacted the CIA on behalf of businessman Roger Tamraz? 2) Who solicited Global Resources' $100,000 donation to the DNC? 3) Was the contribution made in exchange for diplomatic or political influence to settle a private business deal on behalf of yet another big-money donor? __________________________________________________ RNC News Release January 9, 1998 RNC CHAIRMAN PRAISES INTERNET POSTING OF FEC REPORTS "A big step toward full, wide and immediate disclosure" WASHINGTON - The Chairman of the Republican National Committee, today praised the Federal Election Commission (FEC) for their decision to publish campaign finance reports on their Internet site. "This development is a big step toward our goal of full, wide and immediate campaign finance disclosure," said RNC Chairman Jim Nicholson. The FEC web site allows Internet users to look up reports on federal candidates, political parties and political action committees. Until now, people would have to travel to Washington to examine the records, or pay for an expensive subscription service to do so. "We have long believed that immediate and full disclosure is crucial to restoring the credibility of political campaigns," Nicholson noted. All 1997-98 reports filed by PACs, political parties, presidential and House campaigns are available for viewing. Reports dating back to 1993 for PACs, parties and presidential committees will be available in the coming weeks. The FEC's web site address is http://www.fec.gov (Play the RNC Weekly Trivia Contest at http://www.rnc.org/cafe/quiz.html) - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 00:33:46 -0700 From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Why Guns? - by L. Neil Smith - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hi all! I know many of you have already seen this, and I apologize for the "rerun". But Neil's article is so good that I want to do my part to make sure it gets to as wide an audience as possible. WHY GUNS? -- by L. Neil Smith -- From the "Webley Page" Over the past 30 years, I've been paid to write almost two million words, every one of which, sooner or later, came back to the issue of guns and gun-ownership. Naturally, I've thought about the issue a lot, and it has _always_ determined the way I vote. People accuse me of being a single-issue writer, a single-issue thinker, and a single-issue voter, but it isn't true. What I've chosen, in a world where there's never enough time and energy, is to focus on the one political issue which most clearly and unmistakably demonstrates what any politician -- or political philosophy -- is made of, right down to the creamy liquid center. Make no mistake: all politicians -- even those ostensibly on the side of guns and gun ownership -- hate the issue and anyone, like me, who insists on bringing it up. They hate it because it's an X-ray machine. It's a Vulcan mind-meld. It's the ultimate test to which any politician -- or political philosophy -- can be put. If a politician isn't perfectly comfortable with the idea of his average constituent, any man, woman, or responsible child, walking into a hardware store and paying cash -- for any rifle, shotgun, handgun, machinegun, _anything_ -- without producing ID or signing one scrap of paper, he isn't your _friend_ no matter what he tells you. If he isn't genuinely enthusiastic about his average constituent stuffing that weapon into a purse or pocket or tucking it under a coat and walking home without asking anybody's permission, he's a four-flusher, no matter what he claims. What his attitude -- toward your ownership and use of weapons -- conveys is his real attitude about _you_. And if he doesn't trust you, then why in the name of John Moses Browning should you trust him? If he doesn't want you to have the means of defending your life, do you want him in a position to control it? If he makes excuses about obeying a law he's sworn to uphold and defend -- the highest law of the land, the Bill of Rights -- do you want to entrust him with _anything_? If he ignores you, sneers at you, complains about you, or defames you, if he calls you names only he thinks are evil -- like "Constitutionalist" -- when you insist that he account for himself, hasn't he betrayed his oath, isn't he unfit to hold office, and doesn't he really belong in _jail_? Sure, these are all leading questions. They're the questions that led me to the issue of guns and gun ownership as the clearest and most unmistakable demonstration of what any given politician -- or political philosophy -- is really made of. He may lecture you about the dangerous weirdos out there who shouldn't have a gun -- but what does that have to do with you? Why in the name of John Moses Browning should you be made to suffer for the misdeeds of others? Didn't you lay aside the infantile notion of group punishment when you left public school -- or the military? Isn't it an essentially European notion, anyway -- Prussian, maybe -- and certainly not what America was supposed to be all about? And if there are dangerous weirdos out there, does it make sense to deprive you of the means of protecting yourself from them? Forget about those other people, those dangerous weirdos, this is about _you_, and it has been, all along. Try it yourself: if a politician won't trust you, why should you trust him? If he's a man -- and you're not -- what does his lack of trust tell you about his real attitude toward women? If "he" happens to be a _woman_, what makes her so perverse that she's eager to render her fellow women helpless on the mean and seedy streets her policies helped create? Should you believe her when she says she wants to help you by imposing some infantile group health care program on you at the point of the kind of gun she doesn't want you to have? On the other hand -- or the other party -- should you believe anything politicians say who claim they stand for freedom, but drag their feet and make excuses about repealing limits on your right to own and carry weapons? What does this tell you about their real motives for ignoring voters and ramming through one infantile group trade agreement after another with other countries? Makes voting simpler, doesn't it? You don't have to study every issue -- health care, international trade -- all you have to do is use this X-ray machine, this Vulcan mind-meld, to get beyond their empty words and find out how politicians really feel. About you. And that, of course, is why they hate it. And that's why I'm accused of being a single-issue writer, thinker, and voter. But it isn't true, is it? =================================== L. Neil Smith is the award-winning author of _Bretta Martyn_, _The Probability Broach_, _The Crystal Empire_, _Henry Martyn_, _The Lando Calrissian Adventures_, and _Pallas_. He is also an NRA Life Member and founder of the Libertarian Second Amendment Caucus. - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.5 iQEVAwUBNLh12dfaQ3zqMQjXAQHh8Qf/V0FlMWmBwSo3RTEeqYkwv5NvNNdVQUxU HLaDu8Qjs0kNUE+PY/5voaNxSzCY7WJnHZnBChkdi6Ok6CT/poJbh3k2XqdTDSlF 7nAem/DHgpxu03QkVFyPlI4g3xnsjX3fZ43vGow7qjib0D4dEGoYuexlr9Yl7HLx FykumwwBgL5Q0/9sSQmLjeuzsm9lWYdPm/Q/FTR28u9E9JQqsaYY+oK3o4j0344n T2RsmIev1RK71P2alV0es22kbOfWvzgHduVkUTPDuX9UbfQys7A0k6oqp4DcBapH 2oW15pJ3uGV6QwZPE5hSgFeS49madr8VREz2GQeBlMNlNMqTpl94fA== =88HW - -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 01:53:07 -0700 From: "S. Thompson" Subject: BATF -- Books(?), Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms I have not spoken to Mr. Ross or to the PROponent personally to verify this, but contact info is included, and my source is trusted and reliable. I wonder if _now_ the ACLU will realize that the First and Second Amendments are connected...... Sarah Subject: Has this happened to you? From: jfross@ix.netcom.com (John Ross) Subject: Has this happened to you? From: jfross@ix.netcom.com (John Ross) Date: 1997/12/18 Message-ID: <67cgt7$4uf@xring.cs.umd.edu> Newsgroups: rec.guns [More Headers] I just received this from a fellow who got it off the Ohio RKBA list. I would be interested in hearing from anyone with a similar experience. Two producers in the national media are planning 1998 pieces on the phenomenon of this book. This is the kind of info they need. JR ************************************************************************** The PROponent 3953 Indianola Ave Columbus, OH 43214 (614) 268-0122 Volume 9 November, 1997 Number 11 BOOK CONTROL ... How many years have we been screaming that it ISN'T just about "gun control", it's all about RIGHTS CONTROL! We have more proof. One of the dealers at our gun shows goes by the name of "Winchester Man". You may have seen him or even bought something from him. He has a bunch of gun socks and books for sale among other items. But the particular item of interest was the stack of books "Unintended Consequences" he was selling. At this particular gun show (not one of ours nor in Ohio) several "suits" showed up at his table and indicated that they were unhappy with him selling the book. They identified themselves as ATF. Apparently they told him they couldn't FORCE him to stop selling the novel, but he noted that they strongly seemed to imply that they could make life tough for him if he didn't comply with their wishes. Most PRO members already know that this book is highly critical of some of the BATF mentality we've seen in recent times. So this is what it comes down to. It's not just "gun control" any more, but "book control" as well. This goes right along with "Internet control" and every other recent attack on the Bill of Rights by so-called "federal" law enforcement. But here's the sad part. Sure Winchester Man is pro-gun, but he's not an activist like we are. At this point in time he is still just an ordinary business man trying to make a dollar. And he told this editor that he is not about to buck the wishes of the ATF, illegal or no. He confided that he didn't make that much on the books anyway, so that once he had them all sold, he wasn't getting any more. This is the insidious part of government licensing, isn't it? First, they tell you that "whatever" NEEDS to be "regulated" through licensing, but once in place, this suddenly becomes a long lever through which pressure can be applied to honest businessmen/women. And I'll tell you what kept going through my mind as "Winchester Man" was telling me how the sales of that book "weren't that important". Inside my head it wasn't Winchester Man talking, but some German shopkeeper back in the thirties. He was telling me that he didn't want "trouble" from the Brown Shirts and even though they didn't have the right to choose his customers, only a small fraction of his business was from Jews anyway, so it didn't matter. It is PRO's suggestion to Winchester Man and anyone else trying to avoid "trouble" from the socialist-fascist faction in our government that they dig out a good history book and take a gander at just the photographs...nothing else... of what Germany looked like by the end of WW II. THEN, having done that, come back and tell us exactly how much "trouble" those shopkeepers saved themselves in the end by going along with Nazi policy? The problem here seems to be that while Winchester Man has read the book he is selling, somehow, the history of tyrants contained therein seems to have not made a connection to the present. But there IS a connection. Those who do not remember history are often doomed to repeat it. ************************************************************************* Thanks for any help. JR Read the book UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES. Reviews are at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D1888118040 and http://www.nguworld.com/vindex/95/123195vs.htm - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:33:01 -0700 From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Training course -Forwarded Received: (qmail 945 invoked by alias); 11 Jan 1998 19:55:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 921 invoked by uid 516); 11 Jan 1998 19:55:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 898 invoked from network); 11 Jan 1998 19:55:13 -0000 Received: from growl.pobox.com (208.210.124.27) by majordomo.pobox.com with SMTP; 11 Jan 1998 19:55:13 -0000 Received: from mail2.rockymtn.net (ns2.rockymtn.net [166.93.8.2]) by growl.pobox.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA11986 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:55:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from 166-93-76-223.rmi.net (166-93-76-223.rmi.net [166.93.76.223]) by mail2.rockymtn.net (8.8.5/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA18631; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:33:51 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199801111933.MAA18631@mail2.rockymtn.net> X-Sender: davisda@rmi.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:37:04 -0700 To: tonyheck@juno.com From: Douglas Davis Subject: Training course Sender: owner-rkba-co.new@majordomo.pobox.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rkba-co@majordomo.pobox.com Posted to rkba-co by Douglas Davis - ----------------------- The Colorado Springs Police Department and the Pikes Peak Chapter of the Firearms Coalition of Colorado have teamed up to present the following FREE safety course to 'the children'. With all the emphasis on 'the children', here is a chance _do something_ to counter the anti-gunners!! The course description, location, and signup information is contained below. Please do all you can to make this service a success. Feel free to copy and distribute and get as many of 'the children' involved as possible. And yes, there is a lot riding on this program for future involvent of the CSPD regarding firearms safety instruction. doug HOME FIREARM SAFETY COURSE Sponsored By Colorado Springs Police Department And Pikes Peak Chapter of the Firearm Coalition of Colorado COURSE DESCRIPTION: The Home Firearm Safety Course is a 4-hour Public Service Course designed to present the basic knowledge, skills and explains the attitude necessary for the safe handling and storing of guns in the home. Even if a family does not own a firearm, a neighbor may. It is estimated that half the homes in America have guns and that there are about 200-800 million guns nationwide. Many of these firearms are family heirlooms, antiques and war souvenirs; therefore, it is possible that every person may come in contact with a gun while visiting a friend or neighbor. This course prepares children to handle such chance encounters in a safe way. Parents also learn how to teach safe and responsible manners to their children in case they encounter an unsupervised firearm at a friend's home. The objective of this course is to teach the basic knowledge, skills and attitude necessary for the safe and proper handling of air guns and firearms. This course includes training on gun parts and operation, ammunition, safety, cleaning, storage and unloading procedures. The course will also familiarize participants with procedures and guidelines for storing pistols, rifles, and shotguns in the home. The concept of "discovery learning" - hands on learning - is used. A special emphasis on children and gun safety will be the focus of this instruction. This is NOT a Hunter Safety Course and does NOT involve any live ammunition or the firing of any firearm. CLASS PARTICIPANTS SHOULD NOT BRING ANY FIREARMS OR AMMUNITION TO THIS CLASS. WHO MAY ATTEND: Children age 11 to 15 years old, which MUST be accompanied by a Parent or Legal Guardian. Children age 16 to 17 years old parents are requested to attend. WHEN AND WHERE: Saturday, January 17th Police Operation Center Community Room 705 S. Nevada Ave. Time: 9AM - 1 P.M. OR Saturday, January 24th Police Operations Center Community Room 705 S. Nevada Ave. Time: 6PM - 10 P.M. TO SIGN UP: You must RSVP prior to the class by calling 444-7281. This is a FREE community service by The Colorado Springs Police Department and The Firearms Coalition of Colorado. ****************** Firearms, self-defense, and other information, with LINKS are available at: http://shell.rmi.net/~davisda Latest additions are found in the group NEW with GOA and other alerts under the heading ALERTS. For those without browser capabilities, send [request index.txt] to davisda@rmi.net and an index of the files at this site will be e-mailed to you. Then send [request ] and the requested file will be sent as a message. Various shareware programs are archived at: ftp://shell.rmi.net/pub2/davisda To receive the contents of the FTP site, send [request index.ftp] to davisda@rmi.net FTP capabilities needed to retrieve programs. ******************** For Help with Majordomo Commands, please send a message to: Majordomo@majordomo.pobox.com with the word Help in the body of the message - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:33:52 -0700 From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: BATF -- Books(?), Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms -Forwarded Received: from terra.aros.net (terra.aros.net [207.173.16.10]) by mars.aros.net (8.8.7/8.8.4) with ESMTP id BAA03990; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 01:34:32 -0700 (MST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by terra.aros.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) id BAA09997 for righter-list-safe-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 01:53:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: terra.aros.net: majordom set sender to owner-righter-list using -f Received: from mars.aros.net (mars.aros.net [207.173.16.20]) by terra.aros.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with ESMTP id BAA09993 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 01:53:22 -0700 Received: from sarahtho (xm1-24.slc.aros.net [207.173.24.169]) by mars.aros.net (8.8.7/8.8.4) with SMTP id BAA03949; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 01:34:05 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980112015307.00836890@aros.net> X-Sender: righter@aros.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 01:53:07 -0700 To: righter-list@aros.net From: "S. Thompson" Subject: BATF -- Books(?), Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms Cc: utah-firearms@xmission.com, lsac@ezlink.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-righter-list@aros.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: righter-list@aros.net I have not spoken to Mr. Ross or to the PROponent personally to verify this, but contact info is included, and my source is trusted and reliable. I wonder if _now_ the ACLU will realize that the First and Second Amendments are connected...... Sarah Subject: Has this happened to you? From: jfross@ix.netcom.com (John Ross) Subject: Has this happened to you? From: jfross@ix.netcom.com (John Ross) Date: 1997/12/18 Message-ID: <67cgt7$4uf@xring.cs.umd.edu> Newsgroups: rec.guns [More Headers] I just received this from a fellow who got it off the Ohio RKBA list. I would be interested in hearing from anyone with a similar experience. Two producers in the national media are planning 1998 pieces on the phenomenon of this book. This is the kind of info they need. JR ************************************************************************** The PROponent 3953 Indianola Ave Columbus, OH 43214 (614) 268-0122 Volume 9 November, 1997 Number 11 BOOK CONTROL ... How many years have we been screaming that it ISN'T just about "gun control", it's all about RIGHTS CONTROL! We have more proof. One of the dealers at our gun shows goes by the name of "Winchester Man". You may have seen him or even bought something from him. He has a bunch of gun socks and books for sale among other items. But the particular item of interest was the stack of books "Unintended Consequences" he was selling. At this particular gun show (not one of ours nor in Ohio) several "suits" showed up at his table and indicated that they were unhappy with him selling the book. They identified themselves as ATF. Apparently they told him they couldn't FORCE him to stop selling the novel, but he noted that they strongly seemed to imply that they could make life tough for him if he didn't comply with their wishes. Most PRO members already know that this book is highly critical of some of the BATF mentality we've seen in recent times. So this is what it comes down to. It's not just "gun control" any more, but "book control" as well. This goes right along with "Internet control" and every other recent attack on the Bill of Rights by so-called "federal" law enforcement. But here's the sad part. Sure Winchester Man is pro-gun, but he's not an activist like we are. At this point in time he is still just an ordinary business man trying to make a dollar. And he told this editor that he is not about to buck the wishes of the ATF, illegal or no. He confided that he didn't make that much on the books anyway, so that once he had them all sold, he wasn't getting any more. This is the insidious part of government licensing, isn't it? First, they tell you that "whatever" NEEDS to be "regulated" through licensing, but once in place, this suddenly becomes a long lever through which pressure can be applied to honest businessmen/women. And I'll tell you what kept going through my mind as "Winchester Man" was telling me how the sales of that book "weren't that important". Inside my head it wasn't Winchester Man talking, but some German shopkeeper back in the thirties. He was telling me that he didn't want "trouble" from the Brown Shirts and even though they didn't have the right to choose his customers, only a small fraction of his business was from Jews anyway, so it didn't matter. It is PRO's suggestion to Winchester Man and anyone else trying to avoid "trouble" from the socialist-fascist faction in our government that they dig out a good history book and take a gander at just the photographs...nothing else... of what Germany looked like by the end of WW II. THEN, having done that, come back and tell us exactly how much "trouble" those shopkeepers saved themselves in the end by going along with Nazi policy? The problem here seems to be that while Winchester Man has read the book he is selling, somehow, the history of tyrants contained therein seems to have not made a connection to the present. But there IS a connection. Those who do not remember history are often doomed to repeat it. ************************************************************************* Thanks for any help. JR Read the book UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES. Reviews are at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D1888118040 and http://www.nguworld.com/vindex/95/123195vs.htm - ------------- To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to righter-list-request@aros.net with the line unsubscribe righter-list in the body. - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:17:40 -0700 From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Re: R2A! PA-RKBA! FYI (fwd) -Forwarded Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.7.6/8.7.3) id KAA10249; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:11:55 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:11:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma010225; Mon Jan 12 10:11:47 1998 Message-Id: Errors-To: listproc@fs1.mainstream.com Reply-To: eschelon@eschelon.seanet.com Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk From: "E.J. Totty" To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: R2A! PA-RKBA! FYI (fwd) X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list Chris, [...] In Pittsburgh, hizzoner da mare wanted to set up surveillance cameras in "high crime" areas. [...] It should be noted that the antis can usually be identified by their lack of ability, or refusal to identify the cause of a problem, and their equally lacking ability to figure out a solution that doesn't punish everybody. First, they will observe that an inanimate object was used in the commission of a crime. They then figure that if all such objects are eliminated that the problem of that particular crime will just simply vanish. We know better. Their thinking is two dimensional, it does not consider the third object or dimension: motivation. Crime happens in most instances - in my estimation - when three things are in consonance: a reason a willingness to hurt others an enabling motive - usually the lack of punishment, and it appears, the ease with which a crime may be successfully committed. The antis see their solution as a straight line cause-and- effect: The tool caused the crime, death and/or injury were the effect. They neglect to consider the basic reference here: The prime mover - the human element. If we were to remove objects from the face of the earth simply on the premises of the anti's arguments, we would soon be left with no planet upon which to argue this point. The second thing here, is that the antis resort to the lowest common denominator as the standard by which any who live in 'society', as a whole, are judged - excepting those who possess great wealth or power. Therefore, the will to place cameras throughout the 'bad' section of town. Try placing them in the 'good' section of town - or at the ritz. Hence, since all of 'society' is suspect of possible criminal behavior or of doing so in the future, they must be denied the most basic of Rights - self-defence. This then must be a crtical argument to be applied to _their_ agument when it is raised: who is the criminal and why are the law abiding being punished for something they have not done? The corollary buttressing arguments to our position are written far and wide. One such corollary easily recalled is the fact of ownership of firearms by no less that 50 percent of the American citizenry, yet the fact of no massive crime wave by _those_ citizens is legend. It is only those who are not possessed of a modicum of respect for the laws and a better amount their fellow citizens, who are as criminals. And equally so, it is the antis who proclaim a solution to any problem is the removel of Rights to make all citizens more equal, but in essence victimizes those same citizens, for they are made to rely on laws which do nothing, and upon a police state which could care less about the citizen. Those so inclinded to rally for more police should remember one very important thing, that more police equals more taxes and litte else, and the one's calling are usually the one's who want no responsibility for their own lives - read: I refuse to carry an arm for my own self-protection. ET - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 08:38:09 -0700 From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: [Fwd: The Not-So-Funny Clown] -Forwarded Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.7.6/8.7.3) id XAA15786; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 23:11:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 23:11:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma015760; Mon Jan 12 23:10:59 1998 Message-Id: <34BADEE2.F18FDC99@inetnebr.com> Errors-To: listproc@fs1.mainstream.com Reply-To: lball@inetnebr.com Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk From: larry ball To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: [Fwd: The Not-So-Funny Clown] X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------34E3B96A66E33111DF9D5AEF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - --------------34E3B96A66E33111DF9D5AEF Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from unlinfo3.unl.edu (unlinfo3.unl.edu [129.93.1.18]) by falcon.inetnebr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA15855 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 21:10:25 -0600 (CST) Received: from oak.zilker.net (daemon@oak.zilker.net [198.252.182.129]) by unlinfo3.unl.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA20481 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 21:05:51 -0600 (CST) Received: by oak.zilker.net (8.8.5/zilker.1.127) id VAA13134; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 21:08:13 -0600 (CST) Received: from mailhost.onramp.net by oak.zilker.net (8.8.5/zilker.1.127) id VAA13110; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 21:08:01 -0600 (CST) Received: from GOA-Texas.org (ppp11-1.hstntx.onramp.net [206.50.229.65]) by mailhost.onramp.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA05914; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 21:04:48 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199801130304.VAA05914@mailhost.onramp.net> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 21:01:58 -0600 From: "Chris W. Stark" To: emai-subscribers@GOA-Texas.org Subject: The Not-So-Funny Clown X-Mailer: Chris W. Stark's registered AK-Mail 3.0b [eng] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-texas-gun-owners@zilker.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: texas-gun-owners@zilker.net Posted to texas-gun-owners by "Chris W. Stark" - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Not-So-Funny Clown The notoriously anti-gun Centers for Disease Control (CDC) has teamed up with several other organizations, most notably Ronald McDonald House, on a project that will result in lessening of parental authority over school children's mental health treatment. The program will also result in pressure from school officials for parents to disarm themselves. The Team Up To Save Lives program is being marketed as an anti-suicide strategy for teachers in our schools, but after viewing the entire program, GOA has discovered that the underlying purpose of the program is to force parents, through guilt tactics, to voluntarily disarm themselves. What this program does is "educate" teachers to possible signs of "risk" in students, and then encourages them to refer students to the school counselors, who are advised by the program to take action. Sometimes these actions can consist of your child being treated psychologically and psychiatrically without parental consent, if the school official thinks such treatment is warranted. If and when your child is deemed "at risk" (and may be deemed so by virtually ANY behavioral change), you may be visited by school officials who are instructed to get you to dispose of the firearms in your home, so as to protect the child from him/herself. The program, which GOA has viewed on CD-Rom, contains video clip examples for teachers to effectively employ guilt tactics in order to frighten parents into relinquishing their firearms. The entire program is nothing more than a front for liberal anti-gun rhetoric to be fed to the American family. One GOA staffer even took all four teachers' exams included with the program and earned a certificate after reading only three of the four test sections. How, you may ask? He simply answered anti-gun and pro-government intervention, receiving a perfect score! Gun owners should protect themselves and their families from such naive attempts at thought control. The push for "conformity for the sake of our children" is one more attempt to drag us into an era where the state, not the family, dictates how our children are raised. Gun owners need to resist the attempts of clowns like Ronald McDonald and his liberal cronies to dictate our parenting. **************************************************************** Gun Owners of America Chris W. Stark - Texas Representative P.O. Box 1924 Crosby, TX 77532-1924 Voice: (713) 217-0649 e-mail: Director@GOA-Texas.org Visit our Web Page at: http://www.GOA-Texas.org "The only no compromise gun lobby in Washington." "A Voice for Texas Gun Owners!" **************************************************************** "No class or group or party in Germany could escape its share of responsibility for the abandonment of the democratic Republic and the advent of Adolf Hitler. The cardinal error of the Germans who opposed Nazism was their failure to unite against it. ...the 63% of the German people who expressed their opposition to Hitler were much too divided and shortsighted to combine against a common danger which they must have known would overwhelm them unless they united, HOWEVER TEMPORARY, to stamp it out." - -William L. Shirer, author; "The rise and fall of the Third Reich" **p.259** ...they who do not learn from History are DOOMED to repeat it!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - -- For help with Majordomo commands, send a message to majordomo@zilker.net with the word help in the message body. - --------------34E3B96A66E33111DF9D5AEF-- - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:40:24 -0700 From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Sports Illustrated and g >From: INTERNET:jeffb@ilx.com, INTERNET:jeffb@ilx.com >To: Alan Chwick, AJChwick_Family > >Date: 1/14/98 3:53 PM > >RE: Message from Internet > >At the very end of the January 12th, 1998 edition of Sports Illustrated, >there is an article titled "Wishful Thinking" by Rick Reilly, the article is >sub-titled "Our intrepid reporter wouldn't want to put words in anybody's >mouth, but..." The article begins "Please, please, please let us read these >quotes in 1998. The article is a selection of hypothetical quotes from >sports figures that were obviously meant to be humorous, until you get to >near the end. Then comes this quote that he's hoping for "I guess I just >couldn't stand it anymore, seeing schoolkids get shot up with >semiautomatics. I guarantee you, nobody I hunt with needs a 9mm Heckler and >Koch semiautomatic to shoot a rabbit. We're done with them. Starting today >we'll work to ban all semi- and fully automaitc guns. We need to get a >whole lot of blood off our hands." - Marion Hammer, NRA President. I am >growing tired of this, I should be able to read a sports magazine for God's >sake without putting up with this. I'm writing Sports Illustrated to >complain and informing them that I will NOT be renewing my subscription >(ESPN magazine will do me fine, thank you). I encourage everyone to write >and complain about this, this is a magazine kids read and shouldn't be used >to influence them in this way. You can write to Sports Illustrated by >sending a letter with your name, address, and home telephone number to: > >The Editor, Sports Illustrated >Time & Life Building >New York, NY 10020-1393 > >or you can fax letters to 212-467-4049, you can also email letters to >letters@si.timeinc.com > >I highly encourage you all to write and let your voices be heard, feel free >to forward this message to any appropriate mailing groups or other lists. > >Michael G. Moen >michael.moen@asu.edu > >------End forward message--------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 98 18:01:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: MAYOR ALBANO COMMENTS on the CONSTITUTION!! See email addresses in the last included message by Ken Larsen, before the message with the FAX number. - Scott Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:23:56 -0500 From: Bob & Karen Powell Springfield, MA WHYN radio 560 AM 1/13/98 6:30pm Springfield Mayor talking with a caller about a proposed trigger lock ordinence and the U.S. Constitution. Ok folks, now I am downright angry. I was just listening to Mayor Albano on the Dan York radio show. Someone called in and asked him about the constitutionality of the trigger lock ordinance. I can't remember word for word but it went something like this: Caller: Where in the constitution do you find the right to pass a law like this? Albano: Oh, you don't believe that ...... Caller: The constitution says our right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Some discussion back and forth about about the 2nd amendment and then: Albano: There IS NO right to own guns, thats why you need permits and FID cards etc. Arrrrrrrggggggggggg!!!!! (that was me screeming at the radio) Also, when this caller was talking about the constitution, York was making comments that this guy sounded like a McVeigh or a right wing radical. Folks, these people think the constitution is nothing more that a piece of toilet paper. This is what we are up against. God help us. Bob Powell Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:43:40 -0500 To: Bob & Karen Powell From: JVS Bob, I hope this meets your approval, cuz the send button has already been pressed! I sent this to another list "Fratrum". If you have any problem with this, Please let me know. I take full responsibility for this message that was sent. I received this message from Bob Powell this evening. I conversed with Bob about this, & we would like to see the following things take place: 1. E-mail the mayor and let him know that there is a right to own guns!! Tell him that he needs to, at the very least, read the constitution if he is an elected official. 2. Follow up with a phone call or letter. If you don't believe that the elected officials are ignoring the constitution, this should do the trick for you. Let's let them know that THE PEOPLE are not ignorant!!! Mayors Office Springfield City Hall 36 Court Street Springfield, MA 01103 413-787-6100 e-mail: mayor@largo.ci.springfield.ma.us WHY BE POLITICALLY CORRECT, WHEN YOU CAN BE RIGHT? Jay Shore Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:07:36 -0700 From: "Dr. Ken Larsen" To: mayor@largo.ci.springfield.ma.us Subject: The right to keep and bear arms Dear Mayor Albano, I just read on the Internet a curious post quoting you as saying in a radio interview something like: "There IS NO right to own guns." Please tell me that was a terrible misquote and that we are still living in an America where politicians take an oath and have an idea what the Constitution is about. Thank you for your reassurance of a concerned citizen of faraway Utah. Dr. Ken Larsen Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 21:05:14 -0700 From: "Dr. Ken Larsen" To: mayor@largo.ci.springfield.ma.us Cc: wfoley@largo.ci.springfield.ma.us, bwilliams@largo.ci.springfield.ma.us, wboyle@largo.ci.springfield.ma.us, bgarvey@largo.ci.springfield.ma.us, bgarde@largo.ci.springfield.ma.us, rpellegrino@largo.ci.springfield.ma.us, trooke@largo.ci.springfield.ma.us, tryan@largo.ci.springfield.ma.us, bsantaniello@largo.ci.springfield.ma.us ". . . the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." US Constitution, 2nd Amendment. Similar language is contained in the Constitution of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts: PART THE FIRST, Article XVII. "The people have a right to keep and to bear arms for the common defence." Could anything be more plain? Can those words possibly be twisted to allow government to mandate trigger locks on privately-owned arms? Has everyone in Springfield lost their copy of the Constitution? Please, please, reread the Second Amendment and then reread Article VI, Paragraph 3. "The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution;" Similar words are in the Massachusetts Constitution. Are not Mayors and City councilors included in Art VI, para 3? Are they not required to support the Constitution? Can they keep their oath to support the Constitution while supporting an unconstitutional city ordinance that infringes the right of the citizens of Springfield "to keep and bear arms"? Please explain, or apologize for this oversight and reaffirm your oath to support ALL of the Constitution, including the 2nd Amendment. Dr. Ken Larsen kencan@xmission.com Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 13:33:25 -0500 From: Bob & Karen Powell Subject: Mayor albano's fax number Our thanks to everyone for coming through on this one. The mayor is receiving many more messages than I am sure he ever expected. We just received Mayor Michael Albano's fax # which is: FAX # 413-787-6104 Thanks to Jay Shore for tracking it down. If we could use up a few rolls of fax paper, that would help get our message across even more. Mayors Office Springfield City Hall 36 Court Street Springfield, MA 01103 413-787-6100 e-mail mayor@largo.ci.springfield.ma.us Karen - - ------------------------------ End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #13 **********************************