From: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com (utah-firearms-digest) To: utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: utah-firearms-digest V2 #40 Reply-To: utah-firearms-digest Sender: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk utah-firearms-digest Monday, March 30 1998 Volume 02 : Number 040 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:51:15 -0700 From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: re: Mikey doesn't like guns (Was: FW: [Fwd: The Real Lesson of the School Shootings - WSJ]) FYI, this article came from page A14 of today's (Friday, 27 March) edition of the WSJ. On Fri, 27 Mar 1998, "Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises Inc and Shire.Net" posted: > > >Maybe we need MIKEY to read this. > > >We need to draw much attention to this article and point out Mikey's >flaws!!! > > >Make him eat crow! > > >Chad > > > > >>Envelope-to: chad@pengar.com > >>From: Dan Gosselin < > >>To: "'chad@pengar.com'" < > >>Subject: FW: [Fwd: The Real Lesson of the School Shootings - WSJ] > >>Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:06:17 -0500 > >>MIME-Version: 1.0 > >> > >> > >> > >>Subject: The Real Lesson of the School Shootings - WSJ > >>Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:05:57 -0500 > >>MIME-Version: 1.0 > >>Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=3D"---- >=3D_NextPart_001_01BD5991.E6F8B1B0" > >> > >>http://interactive.wsj.com/edition/current/articles/SB89095813222556500.htm > >> > >> =20 > >>=20 ></125Side.map> > =3D0 ) { document.write(""); } //-->=20 ><nion;tile=3D1;ord=3D15429> > > >> In this Section: =20 ><ies/wwide.htm>World-Wide > =20 ><ies/asia.htm>Asia > <ries/europe.htm>Europe > <ries/americas.htm>The >Americas=20 ><ies/economy.htm>Economy > <ries/earnings.htm>Earnings >=46ocus=20 ><ies/politics.htm>Politics >& Policy ><ments/weather.htm>Weather > ><ies/editorl.htm>Editorial >Page=20 ><ies/leisure.htm>Leisure >& Arts=20 ><ies/voices.htm>Voices > =20 ><nion;tile=3D2;ord=3D15429> > ><ments/toc.htm>Table >of Contents Related Sites: =20 ><ies/barrons.htm>Barron's >Online <SmartMoney Interactive =20 ><Careers.wsj.com =20 ><Business Directory =20 ><Publications >Library =20 ><WSJ.COM Radio > >> Hear top news of the hour with ><RealPlayer 5.0 > >> Search/Archives: =20 ><ments/search.htm>Search > =20 ><ments/bbsearch.htm>Briefing >Books =20 ><ments/qsearch.htm>Quotes > =20 ></menu.html>Past >Editions =20 ><es/JournalLinks.htm>Journal >Links =20 ><ments/special.htm>Special >Reports Resources: =20 ><ments/help.htm>Help > =20 ><ments/new.htm>New >=46eatures =20 ><html>Your >Account =20 ><ments/contact.htm>Contact >Us =20 ><ments/glossary.htm>Glossary > Advertising: =20 ><htm>Advertisers > =20 ><ml>E-Mart > March 27, 1998 <=20 > >> > >> > >> The Real Lesson > >> Of the School Shootings > >> > >> > >>By JOHN R. LOTT JR. > >> > >>=20 > >> > >>This week's horrific shootings in Arkansas have, predictably, spurred >calls for more gun control. But it's worth noting that the shootings >occurred in one of the few places in Arkansas where possessing a gun is >illegal. Arkansas, Kentucky and Mississippi--the three states that have >had deadly shootings in public schools over the past half-year--all >allow law-abiding adults to carry concealed handgun for >self-protection, except in public schools. Indeed, federal law >generally prohibits guns within 1,000 feet of a school. > >> > >>=20 > >> > >>Gun prohibitionists concede that banning guns around schools has not >quite worked as intended--but their response has been to call for more >regulations of guns. Yet what might appear to be the most obvious >policy may actually cost lives. When gun-control laws are passed, it is >law-abiding citizens, not would-be criminals, who adhere to them. >Obviously the police cannot be everywhere, so these laws risk creating >situations in which the good guys cannot defend themselves from the bad >ones. > >> > >>=20 > >> > >>Consider a fact hardly mentioned during the massive news coverage of >the October 1997 shooting spree at a high school in Pearl, Miss.: An >assistant principal retrieved a gun from his car and physically >immobilized the gunman for a full 41/2 minutes while waiting for the >police to arrive. The gunman had already fatally shot two students >(after earlier stabbing his mother to death). Who knows how many lives >the assistant principal saved by his prompt response? > >> > >>=20 > >> > >>Allowing teachers and other law-abiding adults to carry concealed >handguns in schools would not only make it easier to stop shootings in >progress. It could also help deter shootings from ever occurring. >Twenty-five or more years ago in Israel, terrorists would pull out >machine guns in malls and fire away at civilians. However, with >expanded concealed-handgun use by Israeli citizens, terrorists soon >found the ordinary people around them pulling pistols on them. Suffice >it to say, terrorists in Israel no longer engage in such public >shootings--they have switched to bombing, a tactic that doesn't allow >the intended victims to respond. > >> > >>=20 > >> > >>The one recent shooting of schoolchildren in Israel further >illustrates these points. On March 13, 1997, seven seventh- and >eighth-grade Israeli girls were shot to death by a Jordanian soldier >while they visited Jordan's so-called Island of Peace. The Los Angeles >Times reports that the Israelis had "complied with Jordanian requests >to leave their weapons behind when they entered the border enclave. >Otherwise, they might have been able to stop the shooting, several >parents said." > >> > >>=20 > >> > >>Together with my colleague William Landes, I have studied >multiple-victim public shootings in the U.S. from 1977 to 1995. These >were incidents in which at least two people were killed or injured in a >public place; to focus on the type of shooting seen in Arkansas we >excluded shootings that were the byproduct of another crime, such as >robbery. The U.S. averaged 21 such shootings per year, with an average >of 1.8 people killed and 2.7 wounded in each one. > >> > >>=20 > >> > >>We examined a whole range of different gun laws as well as other >methods of deterrence, such as the death penalty. However, only one >policy succeeded in reducing deaths and injuries from these >shootings--allowing law-abiding citizens to carry concealed handguns. > >> > >>=20 > >> > >>The effect of "shall-issue" concealed handgun laws--which give adults >the right to carry concealed handguns if they do not have a criminal >record or a history of significant mental illness--has been dramatic. >Thirty-one states now have such laws. When states passed them during >the 19 years we studied, the number of multiple-victim public shootings >declined by 84%. Deaths from these shootings plummeted on average by >90%, injuries by 82%. Higher arrest rates and increased use of the >death penalty slightly reduced the incidence of these events, but the >effects were never statistically significant. > >> > >>=20 > >> > >>With over 19,600 people murdered in 1996, those killed in multiple >victim public shootings account for fewer than 0.2% of the total. Yet >these are surely the murders that attract national as well as >international attention, often for days after the attack. Victims >recount their feelings of utter helplessness as a gunman methodically >shoots his cowering prey. > >> > >>=20 > >> > >>Unfortunately, much of the public policy debate is driven by lopsided >coverage of gun use. Tragic events like those in Arkansas receive >massive news coverage, as they should, but discussions of the 2.5 >million times each year that people use guns defensively--including >cases in which public shootings are stopped before they happen--are >ignored. Dramatic stories of mothers who prevented their children from >being kidnapped by carjackers seldom even make the local news. > >> > >>=20 > >> > >>Attempts to outlaw guns from schools, no matter how well meaning, have >backfired. Instead of making schools safe for children, we have made >them safe for those intent on harming our children. Current school >policies fire teachers who even accidentally bring otherwise legal >concealed handguns to school. We might consider reversing this policy >and begin rewarding teachers who take on the responsibility to help >protect children. > >> > >>=20 > >> > >>Mr. Lott, a fellow at the University of Chicago School of Law, >is the author of "More Guns, Less Crime," forthcoming in early May from >the University of Chicago Press. > >> > >>=20 ><m#top>Return >to top of page Copyright =A9 1998 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All >Rights Reserved. =3D0 ) { s +=3D "<'Language=3D"Javascript"=DD src=3D"/edition/resources/documents/ppath.js">';= >=20 >s +=3D ""; document.write( s ); } //--> =20 > >> > > >--------------------------------------------------------------- > >Chad Leigh Pengar Enterprises, Inc and Shire.Net > >chad@pengar.com info@pengar.com info@shire.net > >=46ull service WWW services from just space to complete sites. > >Low cost virtual servers. DB integration. Tango. > >Email forwarding -- Permanent Email Addresses. POP3 and IMAP > >Email Accounts. mailto:info@shire.net for any of these. > >--------------------------------------------------------------- > > >- > > - -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these things I'm fairly certain 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it. "The prohibition is general. No clause in the Constitution could by rule of construction be conceived to give the Congress the power to disarm the people. Such a flagitious attempt could only be made under some general pretense by a state legislature. But if in blind pursuit of inordinate power, either should attempt it, this amendment may be appealed to as a restraint on both." -- William Rawle, 1825; considered academically to be an expert commentator on the Constitution. He was offered the position of the first Attorney General of the United States, by President Washington. - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 98 19:42:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Courts Are Above the Constitution? Forward From: "Distribution@Vigo-Examiner.com" Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 23:28:56 +0000 Subject: DOJ Confides Disloyalty to US Const. by WILLIAM MICHAEL KEMP minutemn@internetpro.net The Vigo Examiner In December 1997, the Unites Stated Department of Justice received a letter from a group which put forward the position that the right to keep and bear arms was a right held by individuals, predated the Constitution, and was simply affirmed and guaranteed by the second Article of the Bill of Rights, not granted by it. Recently they got their reply, having waited only three months. In a letter dated March 18, 1998, the Department of Justice (DOJ), in the person of James S. Reynolds, Chief of the Terrorism and Violent Crime Section, answered this assertion with a listing of citations of case law, as handed down by the Supreme Court and various U.S. Courts of Appeal over the last sixty years. In these cites, it is asserted that the Constitution does not grant a right to individuals to own and use firearms. All appeared well. The DOJ was in agreement. Not quite. The DOJ went on to assert that because the Constitution is not the source of rights, that at least one of the rights it guarantees does not exist. Reynolds asserts that these court decisions supercede the Constitution, and that the right does not exist because the courts have said it does not exist, regardless of what the Constitution says on the matter. The reply concludes by quoting from a letter from Mary C. Lawton, Deputy Assistant Attorney General, Office of Legal Counsel, to George Bush, Chairman, Republican National Committee (July 19, 1973): "...it must be considered as settled that there is no personal constitutional right, under the Second Amendment, to own or use a gun." Mr. Reynolds further confides that this loyalty to the courts, not the Constitution, is the position of the current Department of Justice, and that this position has long been held by the Department under both Democratic and Republican administrations. Gun control activists have expressed their satisfaction over this position, and state their intention to further press for limits on individual freedom to and use of firearms. Several have noted, however, that the blunt statement expressed in this letter from the Department of Justice will likely infuriate the legions of American gun rights activists, and may well make the slow, steady elimination of firearms from personal possession all the more difficult. Gun rights activists also take the position that the Constitution "grants" no rights whatsoever. They cite Thomas Jefferson's Declaration of Independence, wherein Jefferson states that men "...are endowed by their Creator" with rights, and that therefore, the Constitution is only the government's solemn written contract to preserve the preexisting rights. Some say this point is blatantly contradicted in the Department of Justice letter, and by several of the case law cites which are invoked to support their position. These gun rights adherents further cite the wording of the Bill of Rights itself, which states in part that "..the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." They note that where the phrase "the people" is used in all other parts of the Constitution, it invariably and inarguably means, and is universally accepted as "the collection of individual Americans." Strict Constitutional constructionists, they attack the Justice Department's reliance on case law, and claim that the Department of Justice's reliance upon "the Courts'" opinions is akin to the defendants at Nuremberg (war criminals trials after World War II) claiming to be "following orders," and point out that each Constitutional officer is required to swear an individual oath to the Constitution, not the courts. They say that Article VI of the Constitution requires strict adherence by all legislative, executive, and judicial officers to the Constitution, not the courts. They further cite Jefferson's Declaration of Independence, pointing out that this foundation of American government requires that the people alter or abolish any government which fails to support the premise of individual rights, subsequently guaranteed by the Constitution. They allege that any judge (or any government employee) who has taken the position that government is not absolutely bound to support individual rights over the delegated power of government is in violation of their oath of office, and has thus vacated their office and their authority. The Department of Justice's position is currently demonstrated in several situations present in the news, most recently in the arrest of several men in Michigan, accused of possessing what the Department of Justice refers to as "illegal firearms." One of the firearms in question is called, by government attorneys, a "sniper rifle accurate to over a mile." At least one of the defendants in that case is alleging in his defense that there is no such thing as an "illegal firearm" when possessed by a free American. A gun rights and citizens' militia activist was interviewed at a shooting range, and prior to the interview, used a bolt action rifle with telescopic sights to demonstrate the accuracy of the firearm. From a sandbagged position, he fired several shots in succession at targets not visible to the naked eye at the considerable distance covered. Upon examination, several soft drink bottle caps and brass shell casings were observed with bullet holes through them. He referred to the firearm as "a deer rifle." The man, who spoke with the assurance of anonymity, scoffed at the promised anonymity. "They know who I am," he stated. When questioned who "they" were, he replied "the government-- or, I should say, their secret police." Pushed for an explanation, he pointed out that this reporter had no difficulty in locating a spokesman for the gun activists' viewpoint. He further pointed out that he was routinely contacted at home by various representatives of the media. He then asserted that government employees were indeed anonymous, removed from the citizenry over whom they allege control, and that they were following the same path embarked upon by representatives of King George in colonial times in the effort to further their unlawful control over the citizenry. This gentleman asserted that the founders of the United States pointedly affirmed the right of Americans to keep and bear arms, ascribed the success of the revolution against England to the armed citizenry, and trumpeted the American government as being qualitatively different from all the other governments of the world, in that the government not only trusted the citizenry to be armed, but in fact depended upon the citizens' armament to maintain their hard-won freedom. "King George assumed the power to disarm Americans, and his representatives attempted to exercise that power," he stated. "That government was proven to be in error." Not all gun rights activists, however, are so alienated by the actions and attitude of the DOJ. The National Rifle Association, a long time supporter of law enforcement, successfully lobbied for passage of HR 666 in January of 1995. This law allows warrantless search and seizure. Some have alleged that it has completely compromised the Fourth Amendment. The Department of Justice maintains the position stated in the referenced letter. Copyright (c) 1998, The Vigo Examiner http://www.Vigo-Examiner.com Enjoy a 90 day free trial subscription to the email version of The Vigo Examiner. To receive one or two of the top stories or editorials by email each day, send your request to Editor@Vigo-Examiner.com. - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 98 19:42:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: rights *granted* by CONstitution - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:18:27 -0600 From: Jim To: "liberty-and-justice@pobox.com" Scott Bergeson wrote: > This is what your government thinks of your *rights* as *conferred* > by the CONstitution. > Mike Kemp > Note: The New Jersey Militia received the following letter, > dated 3/18/98, from the U.S. Department of Justice in > response to our inquiry over their official position on the > Second Amendment. > Dear Mr. [Deleted] > This responds to your letter from December 1997 in which you > express your concern about the official position of the Department > of Justice regarding the Second Amendment. You relate the argument > of Professor Copperud, that the Second Amendment is simply the > confirmation of a preexisting individual right to bear arms. > Ultimately, however, it is the U.S. Supreme Court and the lower > Federal courts that are the final arbiter of the meaning of the > Constitution. Yes but the Bill of Rights does guarantee the right to keep and bear arms. Of course the Constitution doesn't it created the federal government and assigned it 18 powers. The Bill of Rights has its own preamble and stands alone. Don't be fooled by its being jammed up "under" the Constitution and its preamble dropped to make you think it an organic part of the Constitution. Your rights come from nature and nature's God. There is a maxim of law which says that a creation may not harm its creator. Look at the sequence below and remember or learn the true history of the united States. People state Constitutions state governments uS Constitution uS government 14th Amendment 14th Amendment citizens. We need a knowledge of how the country was set up in order to reclaim our rights that were a condition placed on the Constitution. They didn't get to have their constitution until they made a contract not to do certain things. Today people in ignorance of the true meaning of their acts accept benefits from government that strip away their "rights". The governments ultimate power is over paper. It is words on paper that have put us in the position we find ourselves in now. Words on paper can also free you to pursue your life freely unencumbered but you need knowledge to make this work. Here are some non sequiturs: Governments have the right to print money but seem to prefer to borrow it. Huh??? People trade their rights and freedoms for little pieces of paper that aren't money but debt. Huh? People created the constitutions and governments and are everywhere acknowledged as the sovereigns here but believe bureaucrats who say you must obey because we signed a contract on your behalf that obligates you. Huh? Jim - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 98 22:37:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Insider Info on Shooting - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 10:21:46 -0800 From: Liberty or Death To: ignition-point@pobox.com, fratrum@netside.com, liberty-and-justice@pobox.com Forwarded from another list...don't complain about the all-caps, that's how I got it. - ------- AN EMPL0YEE HERE IN MY DEPT. ALSO IS A POLICE RESERVIST AND WORKS THE JAIL. BOTH THE BOYS WHO DID THE SHOOTING WERE LOCKED DOWN IN THEIR CELLS ABOUT 9PM AND WENT IMMEDIATELY TO SLEEP, NO PROBLEM. SLEPT ALL NIGHT. DIDN'T SEEM TO SHOW AN REMORSE OR ANGER OR ANYTHING. JUST SEEMED LIKE LITTLE KIDS WHO HAD A ROUGH DAY PLAYING ON THE PLAYGROUND. THE 13 YEAR OLD'S MOTHER AND STEP FATHER CAME IN THE NEXT MORNING, AND THIER FIRST QUESTION TO THE DESK SARGEANT WAS "WHEN CAN WE GET OUR VAN BACK?" THE NEXT QUESTION WAS, "WELL, CAN WE AT LEAST GET THE CAR SEAT OUT OF THE VAN? IT'S THE ONLY ONE WE HAVE." NEITHER SEEMED TO CONCERNED OR BOTHERED ABOUT THE EVENTS OF THE PREVIOUS DAY. THE 11 YEAR OLDS PARENTS WERE HISTARICOL. THE DAY MORNING THIS HAPPENED, THE TWO BOYS TOOK A TORCH TO THE 11 YEAR OLD BOYS DAD'S GUN SAFE AND COULDN'T GET TO THEM. SO THEY WENT TO THE 13 YEAR OLDS HOUSE AND BROKE A WINDOW OUT TO GET IN AND STOLE ALL HIS WEAPONS AND AMMUNITION. THE GRANDFATHER IS DOUG GOLDEN AND IS AN ARKANSAS STATE WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT OFFICER AND IS ALSO A GUN COLLECTOR LIKE THE BOYS FATHER. IF THIS DOESN'T SHOW A THOUGHT PROCESS AND PREMEDITATION THEN I DON'T KNOW WHAT WOULD. THE ENTIRE TOWN IS TURNED UPSIDE DOWN. HILLCREST ELEMENTARY ACROSS TOWN HAD A FIRE IN THE KITCHEN, AND THEY WERE TOO AFRAID TO PULL THE FIRE ALARM, SO THEY RAN FROM ROOM TO ROOM ANNOUNCING AN EVAC. THE FIRE DEPT. SHOWED AND PUT IT OUT WITHOUT HARM. ALL RADIO STATIONS AND MEDIA ARE GATHERING MONEY DONATIONS FOR RELIEF FOR THE VICTIMS AND THIER FAMILIES. THE RED CROSS IS WORKING 24 HOURS A DAY TO TAKE BLOOD DONATIONS AND MONEY DONATIONS. THERE IS NOTHING ON ANYONES MIND AT THIS TIME BUT WHAT HAS HAPPENED AND WHY. - ------- - - Monte -------------------------------------------------------------------- "Maybe freedom's just one of those things that you can't inherit." - Peter Bradford, in the film "Amerika" -------------------------------------------------------------------- The Idaho Observer http://www.proliberty.com/observer - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 01:40:58 -0700 From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: Preaching to someone other than the choir Thought y'all might be interested to know that I emailed a copy of the WSJ article to several State Legislators and Governor Mikey as well as several editors, etc at the Desnews and Tribune. I received the following response from one of the legislators. Identifiing info redacted. If you haven't done so already, you should perhaps forward copies to your State legislators, the governor, the papers, etc. And keep a copy handy to pass on to any newly elected legislators. - ----BEGIN FORWARDED MESSGE---- Mr. Hardy, Thank you for this well reasoned response to the latest tragedy in Arkansas. To my astonishment, our "conservative" republican governor in Utah used this deviant behavior as a call to prohibit weapons on school grounds by concealed weapon permit holders. HIs response was an emotional one, yours a practical and responsible one. I would like to get a copy of "More Guns, Less Crime" when it is available. - ----END FORWARDED MESSAGE---- - -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these things I'm fairly certain 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it. A camel is a horse designed by a committee and an elephant is a mouse built to military specifications." -- from page 321 of "Cryptoanalysis for Microcomputers" by Caxton C. Foster (University of Massachusetts), Hayden Book Co. Inc., 1982. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 07:22:29 -0700 From: "larry larsen" Subject: Re: Preaching to someone other than the choir To freedom loving Uthans, I believe it is time to stop, if you haven't already, supporting Mike Leavett as governor of Utah. Conditions should not be made favorable for him to consider a third term in office. All freedom loving people should be made aware of his anti constitutional stance, and no support should be given him from any moral person. I see where his thoughts lie, and they are to impress the big time government, and world leaders who are watching Utah prepare for the up coming Olympics. The Governor wishes to stand out in all his glory at the Olympics, and during this time of preparation, as a future candidate for high (perhaps president) government office. He will not be able to achieve his lofty goal, if he fails to do away with the CCW law in Utah as it exists. When he just wanted to be governor of Utah it was fine to do and act as a freedom loving Utahan would act, but now he feels he must meet the criteria of the big time government leaders. Perhaps no amount of reason will sway him, but others will and have listened, so lets do as Charles has suggested and pass the word. Larry S. Larsen http://larsenfamily.com/russian_stove/ Destrier@larsenfamily.com _=_____________________________! <|------==(______)-------- |____| |/////_____________45 ACP___|___| \ /|( )/ / /) ___| / o/ / / /o___/ - -----Original Message----- From: Charles Hardy Date: Sunday, March 29, 1998 1:40 AM Subject: Preaching to someone other than the choir Thought y'all might be interested to know that I emailed a copy of the WSJ article to several State Legislators and Governor Mikey as well as several editors, etc at the Desnews and Tribune. I received the following response from one of the legislators. Identifiing info redacted. If you haven't done so already, you should perhaps forward copies to your State legislators, the governor, the papers, etc. And keep a copy handy to pass on to any newly elected legislators. - ----BEGIN FORWARDED MESSGE---- Mr. Hardy, Thank you for this well reasoned response to the latest tragedy in Arkansas. To my astonishment, our "conservative" republican governor in Utah used this deviant behavior as a call to prohibit weapons on school grounds by concealed weapon permit holders. HIs response was an emotional one, yours a practical and responsible one. I would like to get a copy of "More Guns, Less Crime" when it is available. - ----END FORWARDED MESSAGE---- - -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these things I'm fairly certain 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it. A camel is a horse designed by a committee and an elephant is a mouse built to military specifications." -- from page 321 of "Cryptoanalysis for Microcomputers" by Caxton C. Foster (University of Massachusetts), Hayden Book Co. Inc., 1982. - - - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Mar 98 21:25:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: "Rifles and Magnums and Weapons" (Oh, my!) Good point about the hypocrisy of gun-grabbers, though the same arguments that apply in support of RKBA apply to any chemical entity as well. - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 11:14:24 -0600 (CST) From: David Gonzalez To: L&J Cc: PIML , NOBAN On NBC's "Meet the Press" this morning, Tim Russert hyped Bill Moyers' upcoming special, "Close to Home", in which he chronicles the drug addiction of his own son. Russert then introduced Moyers, who agonized over the recent tragedy in Jonesboro, Arkansas asking, rhetorically, "what makes kids commit heinous crimes like this?". Moyers had the answer, of course: guns, millions of guns, and the easy availability of these guns---so that kids who once settled their petty differences with slingshots or fists now grab a convenient gun whenever they become angry. Despite his upcoming hand-wringer about his own son's drug addiction, Moyers--in his hypocritical determination to demonize firearms--very conveniently ignored the statement by a Jonesboro girl when asked about the 13-year-old (alleged) shooter's declaration that he would "kill the people (girls) who had dumped him"---she said "I used to date him, but I dumped him after he began using drugs!". In the later "roundtable" discussion, Rep.. Zoe Lofgren, liberal Democrat from California's 16th CD (San Jose), kept hammering away at the easy availability of those evil firearms and urging even stronger federal gun control--aided and abetted by Russert, who observed in a flummoxed manner, "...and these kids had rifles and Magnums and weapons!"--while she gave an impressive impersonation of Eleanor Clift by interspersing half-hearted apologies for our sophomoric president's boorish sexual predations. Finally, Bill Moyers talked about his special on addiction---he talked about drugs "hijacking the brain" and how people (including his own son) will risk family, home, job--*everything*, in fact--to get just one more chemical fix. How their personalities will become distorted and their judgement will fly out the window---but that this does not relieve the addict of the responsibility for his actions or for the management of his addiction. How ironic---when Mr. Moyers' son became a drug addict and destroyed his own life, he could identify the problem: drugs, and his son's addictive personality. But when a troubled teen in Arkansas (who had once boasted of his supposed membership in "The Bloods" street gang) begins using drugs, then destroys the lives of others (along with his own and that of his 11-year-old cousin), all that Mr. Moyers--in a classic case of bilateral locution--can discern is the old bugaboo firearms---and how easily available they are. How ironic---and how utterly disingenuous. David M. Gonzalez, Troglodyte Wheeling, Illinois Replies/Abuse: gonzalez@mcs.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Mar 98 21:25:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: DNews political reporter says LDS Church supports gun ban legislation Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 10:42:31 EST From: FreeUtah To: lputah@qsicorp.com Seems like this one cries out for a response based on our earlier discussion of what the LDS Church's statement meant. Scooter! ************** Sentiment to restrict concealed arms grows Lawmakers won't act despite poll numbers Last updated 03/28/1998, 12:01 a.m. MT © 1998 Deseret News By Bob Bernick Jr. Deseret News political editor It's rare that 90 percent of Utahns want something and legislators refuse to comply. Especially if it doesn't cost money. Especially if the LDS Church wants it, too. But for two general legislative sessions now, lawmakers have refused to act on restricting where legally permitted concealed weapons may be carried. That refusal is despite overwhelming polling numbers, a statement by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on keeping all guns out of churches and Gov. Mike Leavitt's request that lawmakers address the matter. Now a new Deseret News poll shows that support for restricting concealed weapons has even climbed a bit more. (See chart.) While previous polls place support for restricting concealed weapons in churches and schools in the high 80 percent range, support has reached 90 percent or above, pollster Dan Jones & Associates found. But Bryan Lindsey isn't surprised that legislators haven't acted. The laboratory technician, husband and father of three considers himself an average Utahn. When he isn't working in a private lab conducting forensic tests, Lindsey is a citizen lobbyist on guns-rights issues. "The legislators whom I talk to understand that there just isn't a problem" with "good, honest citizens" abusing their right to carry a concealed weapon, Lindsey says. About 15,000 Utahns have been licensed by the state to carry concealed weapons. They go through a background check and some training before receiving the permit, which under state law must be issued unless there is a valid reason not to issue it. Guns-rights advocates say the permits give law-abiding citizens the right to carry their handguns anywhere they wish, except for the specifically exempted locations of the courts, the Salt Lake International Airport, jails and other law enforcement-secure areas. "Criminals will not obey any law we may pass," Lindsey said. Only the law-abiding, concealed-weapons owners will. And that gives criminals the "power over good citizens." But House Minority Leader Dave Jones says legislators won't act, not because of reason but because conservative GOP leaders, backed by the gun lobby, are determined to thwart the public will. "Why do we ignore 90 percent of the people?" Jones, D-Salt Lake, asked. "It's because a few (legislators) have got the power, they are ardent gun-rights advocates and outside the mainstream of Utahns on this issue." Bill Nash, a University of Utah professor who is chairman of Utahns Against Gun Violence, says there are three reasons lawmakers refuse to act: "Some are reluctant to disagree with the National Rifle Association; some believe House Speaker Mel Brown and former Speaker Rob Bishop (who lobbies for the Utah Shooting Sports Council) when they say there's no problem; and some are unwilling to take on a tough issue in an election year." Jones points a finger at Brown. But Brown says to point somewhere else. Browns maintains he never killed one concealed-weapons bill in the 1998 or 1997 session. He said recent polls, including the Deseret News poll, don't adequately explain to those interviewed that the permittees are law-abiding citizens, not criminals, and that they have background checks and training to secure the permits. "There's no problem" with permittees taking guns into schools, churches and grocery stores, the speaker says. Brown says churches, like all private property owners, have the right to keep all guns out, if they so wish. The sticky question, he adds, is what to do with public facilities - schools, government offices, parks, universities and businesses open to the public. "Before you point fingers, you must have proof that you need a change," especially when you're talking about restricting what many believe is a basic constitutional right - the right to bear arms, Brown says. "I don't see that proof," he added. And apparently neither did the sponsors of two bills - Senate President Lane Beattie and Rep. Robert Killpack - in the 1998 session aimed at detailing where concealed weapons may be carried, Brown said. Both men killed their bills after they were introduced, before any public hearing. Nash says his group is pleased that Beattie killed his own bill. "It's better for us not to have it (Beattie's bill). For it would have left unprotected universities and private businesses." Brown added that while Leavitt says he wants something done about where concealed weapons may be carried, "he just points (a finger) also, and he has never put forward any recommended proposal" to solve any of the discussed problems. Leavitt said this week he's disappointed that lawmakers haven't acted on concealed weapons. But he adds he believes they will at some point. - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 13:13:53 -0700 From: Will Thompson Subject: [Fwd: news] Received: from ns.phbtsus.com by toro.phbtsus.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA24158; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 11:09:11 -0700 Return-Path: Received: from ssiinc.com by ns.phbtsus.com with SMTP ($Revision: 1.37.109.9 $/16.2) id AA0576256375; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 10:53:59 -0700 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by wanderer.ssi (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA07222; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 10:02:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 10:02:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1), claiming to be "wanderer.ssiinc.com" via SMTP by localhost, id smtpdAAAa001kd; Mon Mar 30 10:02:27 1998 Message-Id: <315C603175@law1.law.ucla.edu> Errors-To: volokh@law.ucla.edu Reply-To: firearmsreg@ssiinc.com Originator: firearmsreg@ssiinc.com Sender: firearmsreg@ssiinc.com Precedence: bulk From: Ed Kruzel To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: news X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas >Gun company cleared in Brooklyn Bridge shooting >NEW YORK (March 28, 1998 07:43 a.m. EST http://www.nando.net) -- In the >first of its kind to reach trial, a federal jury cleared a gun >manufacturer of any liability in the slaying of a Hasidic student shot >with one of its weapons on the Brooklyn Bridge. For full details click http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/nation/032898/nation30_18969_noframes.html - - ------------------------------ End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #40 **********************************