From: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com (utah-firearms-digest) To: utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: utah-firearms-digest V2 #48 Reply-To: utah-firearms-digest Sender: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk utah-firearms-digest Friday, April 24 1998 Volume 02 : Number 048 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 16:53:38 -0600 From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: Walter Williams in Today's Deseret News [Image] [Opinion] [Image] [Image] [Image] [Image] Government caused Holocaust [Image] Last updated 04/22/1998, 12:01 a.m. MT By Walter Williams Last Sunday, I watched CNN's "Perspective," titled "Survivors of the Shoah," a Steven Spielberg documentary about the Nazi Holocaust. It was a heart-wrenching story about the slaughter of millions of people simply because they were Jews. How could this tragic inhumanity occur? The Jewish survivors chalked it up to intolerance and bigotry, and urged us to judge people by "what's inside," and not race or religion. But there's a problem with such an explanation. Historically, Germany was the most hospitable country for Jews in all of Europe. This is not to say that Jews were not persecuted in Germany, but life was far superior to Jewish life elsewhere in Europe. On the eve of the collapse of the Weimar Republic, which brought the Nazis to power in 1933, Jews were a major part of the economic, scientific, social and cultural life of the country. While Jews were only 1 percent of the German population, they were 10 percent of the country's doctors and dentists, 17 percent of its lawyers and a large percentage of its scientific community. Jews won 27 percent of Nobel Prizes awarded to Germans. During the 1920s, nearly half of all Jewish marriages in Germany were to Gentiles. German Jews went to great lengths to "become" German, including adopting the language, dress and religion. Even Reform Judaism included features of Christianity, such as worship on Sunday instead of the Sabbath (after the Holocaust, they've gone back to the Sabbath). Many religiously Orthodox Jews considered themselves "German." Jews who immigrated to the United States carried their pro-German feelings, so much so that as late as World War I the U.S. government, at war with Germany, brought prosecutions against Jews for voicing support for the enemy. How did a relatively low level of hate and anti-Semitism become the Holocaust? The road to the Holocaust was paved by the centralization and consolidation of government power. When Hitler came to power, he immediately embarked upon that road. Passage of the Enabling Act (1933) and later the Law Concerning the Reconstruction of the Reich (1934) enabled Hitler to centralize power by dissolving all state diets, and county, city and town councils. Hitler then got control of Germany's labor unions and consolidated them into the new Nazi-dominated Labor Front. There was little distinction between the Labor Front's leadership and the Nazi Party. Hitler gained control over agriculture through the Ministry of Food and Agriculture. Through the Reich Food Estate, farm prices were controlled. In 1934, the government established the National Economic Chamber as head of an elaborate hierarchy of industrial and trade associations under the control of the Ministry of Economics. Whatever hate, violence and anti-Semitism experienced by the Weimar Republic Jews, while deeply offensive, could not have developed into the systematic brutality it did during the Third Reich without an all powerful, highly centralized national government. Powerful government tends to draw into it people with bloated egos, people who think they know better than everyone else and have little hesitance in coercing their fellow man. Or as Nobel Laureate Friedrich Hayek said, "In government, the scum rises to the top." Decent people have little desire, or see themselves fit, to order others around. In a collectivist state, there is nothing that collectivist leaders must not be prepared to do if it furthers their agenda. The Holocaust's true lesson is that there is no greater potential for evil than powerful centralized government. This century alone, not counting war, 170 million people have been murdered by their own government. Neither we in United States nor Jews in Israel have learned the lesson of the Holocaust. Creators Syndicate Inc. [Image] [Image] [Image] [Image] [Image] - -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these things I'm fairly certain 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it. "There are no victims, only volunteers. You volunteer by appearing uncertain and afraid. You volunteer by being (as grass-eaters invariably are) unprepared to deal with the dangers of life." - Cooper's Corner - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:43:40 -0600 From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Re: Walter Williams in Today's Deseret News At 04:53 PM 4/22/98 -0600, you wrote: > Government caused Holocaust > [Image] > Last updated 04/22/1998, 12:01 a.m. MT > > By Walter Williams > > Last Sunday, I watched CNN's "Perspective," titled "Survivors > of the Shoah," a Steven Spielberg documentary about the Nazi > Holocaust. It was a heart-wrenching story about the slaughter of > millions of people simply because they were Jews. How could this > tragic inhumanity occur? The Jewish survivors chalked it up to > intolerance and bigotry, and urged us to judge people by "what's > inside," and not race or religion. But there's a problem with such > an explanation. Thank you, Charles, for forwarding this interesting and informative article. While I think Mr. Williams underestimates the extent and depth of anti-Semitism in Eastern Europe, including Germany, his essential point is correct. Most Germans were "sheeple", perfectly willing to agree to anything the powerful, centralized government said was "good for them". Even the German Jews went along with this nonsense, even after it became clear that the Nazis most certainly did not have _their_ best interests at heart. And, of course, the Jews made the cardinal error of agreeing to disarmament, without which it would have been far more difficult for the Nazis to carry out their genocidal plans. Mr. Williams is right. Neither Jews nor Americans seem to have learned much from history. Simply saying "Never Again", without action and responsibility, is not going to prevent future genocides. Sarah If a man riseth up to kill you, kill him first. Talmud - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:54:58 -0600 From: "William Munny" Subject: Fw: Duane Cardahl's Editorial April 22 I can't write as well as most of you folks, but it's the thought that counts. - ---------- > From: William Munny > To: eyewitness@ksl.com > Cc: Douglas R. Watts > Subject: Duane Cardahl's Editorial April 22 > Date: Wednesday, April 22, 1998 8:43 PM > > Dear Editorial Board Members, > > I watched Duane Cardahl's editorial this evening and I must say, it left me > very disgusted! He talked about all the recent responses that KSL had > recieved regarding a couple of his recent editorials. Specifically, he > made reference to his highly opinionated "Girls and Guns" piece from a > couple of weeks ago. He cited as examples (which would lead one to believe > that they were "typical" examples) one sensible example which supported his > position. Then he read an example of a completely stupid response that > someone had written which dissagreed with his position. I would be willing > to bet that the example he used was at lease ONE of the poorest he could > find. > > I must say, you would have a difficult time convincing me that his choice > was totally deliberate. And if that kind of deception isn't an attempt to > manipulate the KSL audience, I don't know what is. > > I had hoped that KSL would have gotten beyond that kind of deliberate > misrepresentation of information when good old Don Gale left. > > Guess not... > > You folks make a very good case for repealing the First Amendment. > > Sincerely, > > D. Watts in Tooele > - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Apr 98 22:47:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Wal-Mart stores I have no idea where this happened. Does anyone know if this is correct concerning Wal-Mart's alleged nationwide policy? From: "Jim Woods" To: "eagleflight----uNITED STATES Theatre Command----David E. Rydel" Subject: Wal-Mart stores Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:47:24 -0500 Dave, Would you please consider posting this? This happened to me 4/21/1998 Let [me] state up front that I have a CCW permit. I was in a local Wal-Mart store in my area, I was wearing my weapon on my side in a high riding holster, my coat just about hid everything. A security person (male) approached me and informed me that Wal-Mart had a nationwide policy against anyone bringing firearms into their stores. I did NOT see a sign warning me of this policy when I entered the store. I informed him of this. He replied, "I'm tired of you gun totin' rednecks trying to carry your guns everywhere you go, and we are going to stop it." We had a few more words and I informed him of the Second Amendment, which he laughed at. He ordered me out of the store and informed me that if I ever set foot on the property again he would have me charged with criminal trespassing. I left the store. I urge all Militia and Freedom loving people to boycott all Wal-Mart stores. Buy your products somewhere else. I did NOT wear my weapon into the store to cause trouble. If I had seen the sign I would have left my weapon in my truck. It was the guy's attitude that really got to me. I vow to not ever buy anything else from Wal-Mart, Inc. For God and Freedom Jim - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Apr 98 23:57:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Wal-Mart stores I hope this answers the question posed in my previous post, but maybe John Howard Freeman merely has the good fortune to patronize a Wal-Mart store whose manager has good sense. - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 23:56:21 -0400 From: John Howard Freeman To: liberty-and-justice@pobox.com Subject: Re: [Fwd: Wal-mart stores] Greetings All, I wear my sidearm (Colt 45) in plain view (I don't need a CCW permit) on my hip in Wal-Mart and have never been approached by anyone. I've been doing it for years and will continue to do so, until properly noticed by the manager. Not some five fifty an hour lackey. If their nationwide policy prohibited "any one" (sic) from bringing firearms into their store, how are they able to sell them in the sporting goods section? So much for their nationwide policy. I believe [a] rambunctious security guard was daydreaming. Furthermore, the Second Amendment doesn't apply on someone else's property, only public property. Steadfastly, John Howard Freeman - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 00:55:49 -0600 From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Re: Wal-Mart stores At 11:57 PM 4/22/98 -0700, you wrote: > >I hope this answers the question posed in my previous post, >but maybe John Howard Freeman merely has the good fortune >to patronize a Wal-Mart store whose manager has good sense. > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 23:56:21 -0400 >From: John Howard Freeman >To: liberty-and-justice@pobox.com >Subject: Re: [Fwd: Wal-mart stores] > >Greetings All, > >I wear my sidearm (Colt 45) in plain view (I don't need a CCW permit) >on my hip in Wal-Mart and have never been approached by anyone. I've >been doing it for years and will continue to do so, until properly >noticed by the manager. Not some five fifty an hour lackey. If their >nationwide policy prohibited "any one" (sic) from bringing firearms >into their store, how are they able to sell them in the sporting goods >section? So much for their nationwide policy. I believe [a] rambunctious >security guard was daydreaming. Furthermore, the Second Amendment >doesn't apply on someone else's property, only public property. > >Steadfastly, > >John Howard Freeman Except that here in Utah, concealed carry is lawful "without restriction" outside of "secure areas". I don't know anything about a national policy. I've never had any problems in a Wal-Mart, but then I believe that concealed means "no one can tell it's there unless they search me or use a metal detector". Sarah - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:28:14 -0600 From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Teen-agers w/guns? >Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 12:46:06 -0600 (MDT) >To: righter@therighter.com >From: agr@aros.net (American Gun Review) >Subject: Teen-agers w/guns? > >>From: JSFarnam >>Subject: Teen-agers w/guns? >> >>Children with guns? >> >> >>Kid with gun saves Mother's life >> >>Elko, Nevada, April 8, 1998 >> >>On Tuesday April 7, 1998, a 15 year old boy tried to stop an intruder from >>beating his mother, and being unable to stop the man, ran into her bedroom, >>retrieved a .22 semiautomatic handgun, loaded several rounds into the clip, >>inserted the clip, and came back and shoot the assailant twice out of three >>shots, killing him. >> >>He is credited with saving the life of his mother, and possibly the 3 year >>old child also present. >> >>The mother suffered a broken cheekbone, a broken nose, several bruises on her >>body, and a cut to her forehead from the attack. >> >>Elko County Sheriff Neil Harris said his office likely will recommend to D.A. >>Gary Woodbury a coroner's inquest to be held into the shooting. >> >>"It seems to me to be a fairly clear-cut case of self-defense and if it turns >>out to be fairly clear, since it's involving a citizen and a child, as opposed >>to a police officer, who would be held more accountable in a shooting, that an >>inquest is not warranted," Woodbury said. >> >> -- Elko Daily Free Press > > Sarah Thompson, M.D. http://www.therighter.com After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in a society where the only people allowed guns are the police and the military. William Burroughs (b. 1914), U.S. author. "The War Universe," taped conversation - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:59:07 -0700 From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: NJ STATE POLICE RAID GUNSITE LIST MODERATOR -Forwarded Received: from fs1.mainstream.net ([206.97.102.4]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 08:27:56 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id KAA19650; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:26:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:26:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma019447; Thu Apr 23 10:23:22 1998 Message-Id: <01IW7E1PAX0O8X11WJ@GNV.IFAS.UFL.EDU> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: MIKEY@GNV.IFAS.UFL.EDU Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk From: Mikey To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: NJ STATE POLICE RAID GUNSITE LIST MODERATOR X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list Subj: FWD: URGENT TO ALL LIST MEMBERS John Schaefer is the GUNSITE (API) Alumni List moderator. While I have never met John personally, all the folks who have met him and known him for years speak well of him. He is known as the "voice of reason and moderation" in everything he does. I have read his frequent posts ever since my first GUNSITE class and cannot recall anything that would have indicated to the contrary. While it appears that that we do not have the full story on this situation yet, I think that this matter cries out for a closer examination. Regards to all, Mike Baker ************************************************************************** From: IN%"frfrog@sprynet.com" "John C. Schaefer" 22-APR-1998 19:29 To: IN%"api@lists.best.com" Subj: URGENT TO ALL LIST MEMBERS All: Welcome to Nazi Germany. And so it begins. Folks this is a REAL nightmare come true. At 7:15 this morning (4/22) over a dozen machinegun armed agents of the NJ State Police broke down my front door and invaded my home screaming obsenities. We were rousted from our beds at gun point. I was ordered to the floor and when I couldn't get down on my knees fast enough because of my artificial knee and arthritis I was kicked to the floor, and my back and neck repeatedly stomped. When one trooper yanked on my arm that had been injured several years ago and I yelled in pain I was Maced and then kicked in the head at least twice resulting in a bloody lip and head pain. Of course none of the storm troopers were wearing name tags. We were forced into our living room, made to stand about in handcuffs for about four hours in our pajamas while they trashed the house. They took all of my firearms, MOST of the ammunition (go figure), my cartridge collection of US military ammo, my lead ingots and a couple of buckets of cast bullets, all of my business records, and get this, my Gunsite 260 certificate (they left my 499 certificate), and my NRA Instructors certificate. They panicked at a dummy 60mm mortar round (the kind you can pick up in surplus stores) and a blue dummy 100lb "practice bomb" (empty sheet metal casing) yet left a couple of M79 practice grenade rounds that were on display in my office. My wife and stepson were verbally abused and my stepson was grabbed and roughed up by one young punk agent and threatened when he asked for some clothes. All of the agents were pacing nervously about pointing their weapons all over and were REALLY psyched up. They were really enjoying what they were doing. I overheard several comments about "well we got another gun nut." They joked about the fact that I was in excruciating pain from my shoulder and knee. One storm trooper wanted to know what my "fucking problem was." I was finally taken to the local PD where I was at least treated with a little respect and compassion. I was finally released on $7,500 bail and my wife took me to the hospital were I was x-rayed, catscanned and given some serious pain medication and released. None of the hospital staff could believe what happened to me. When I finally got back to our house I was amazed to find that they had left ammunition in my vault, and a lot of reloading components in my basement. We have retained a big time attorney (NRA member) but have no idea how we are going to afford him and my retirement papers are in. Your prayers for my family and I will be greatly appreciated in this terrible time. John Schaefer - -- __________________________________________________ John C. Schaefer frfrog@sprynet.com Excalibur Associates FAX: 732.341.4361 People's Republic of NJ http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/frfrog "He who goes about unarmed in paradise had better be sure that that is where he is." -- James Thurber ___________________________________________________ - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Apr 98 18:17:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Bennett / Bishop debacle On Wed, 22 Apr 1998 at 13:07:30 -0600 "S. Thompson" wrote, for herself only: >At 06:10 PM 4/21/98 -0700, you wrote: >>Rob Bishop gave Senator Bennett a lot of power at the Salt Lake >>County GOP convention with his antics, using Bill Quist and >>Gary Utt as his foils by invoking new and imaginary SLCoGOP >>rules different even than the proposed rules sent to delegates, >>refusing to rent the URA a table, stealing literature from >>Hartley Anderson, destroying delegates' copies of an approved >>proposed amendment on Fair Election Practices (which could >>have eliminated the need for all the multiple ballots had >>preference voting been used), having several people arrested >>on bogus charges, and having his henchmen state that the First >>amendment and free speech and press do not apply to delegates >>and candidates at the convention, which Sergeant Potter of >>Aaron Kennard's Sheriff's Department compared to a family reunion. >What evidence do you have that this was Rob Bishop's doing, or even >Sen. Bennett's? According to the admittedly unreliable SL Trib, Sen. >Bennett denounced the shenanigans, and I've heard no mention of Rob >Bishop's name. As State GOP chair I suspect the Salt Lake County GOP officers would listen were he to have objected to their shenanigans. Regardless of his sincerity or insincerity, Sen. Bennett *did* denounce them. This makes him look much better than otherwise, and more likely to prevail in his antigun efforts. >The only prominent elected state Repubs who have _not_ denounced >it are Mike Leavitt and Orrin Hatch. (If you've got more >accurate/up to date info, pass it on.) Note that Mike Leavitt is in league with Sen. Bennett in the antigun campaign. >>Rob could easily and at any time have called off the dogs, but did >>not do so. Senator Bennett came off looking like a saint in these >>incidents. The USSC and NRA would be well advised to immediately >>distance themselves from Rob Bishop, as his credibility is shot. >>Gerry Arthus also points out that Rob Bishop has also failed to >>condemn Mike Leavitt's distortion of the Arkansas schoolyard >>shooting to call for further limits on RKBA and CCW permits. >I would assume you're right that Rob Bishop could have intervened, >but I actually don't know, nor have I discussed this with him. >And it doesn't seem to me that it's "USSC and the NRA" who need to >"distance themselves" from Rob Bishop. It was my understanding that the USSC had retained Rob Bishop as its lobbyist with the Utah Legislature. If he doesn't object to the GOP's tyrannical actions, the perception may rub off on gun rights people as supporting tyranny. The newspapers already attempt to make gun righters appear as special interests who have no concern for the rights of private property owners, school children, or government agencies such as schools and universities, as though governments could *have* rights rather than mere raw power. >I'm not even aware of a relationship between Rob Bishop and the NRA. While perhaps incorrect, there is a perception that the USSC and the NRA are closely allied. >It strikes me that it's a problem for the Republican Party to handle > - they're the ones who came off looking like tyrants. Indeed. However, the USSC has a contract with its Chairman. >Nonetheless, I fail to see what business it is of yours. To my >knowledge you are not a member of USSC, the NRA, nor the Republican >Party. Therefore none of the above have any obligation to heed your >admonitions. Even if I am not currently a member of the USSC, political fallout from this can affect me as much as its members and officers. FYI I am a Republican Party delegate to both the county and state conventions. You may want to request updated delegate lists if yours do not list my name. I submitted and was signatory to the above-mentioned Fair Election Practices amendment that Gary Utt, at Bill Quist's request, trashed. >If you'd like to direct comments to the Board of USSC, you have the >contact information. I assume contact info is also readily available >for the NRA and the Republican Party. I'm sure the Republican Party has already heard far more than they'd like from me. >And believe it or not, Rob Bishop has the same freedom of speech >that everyone else in this country has. This does not extend to denying others freedom of speech, or allowing the parliamentary processes of a political party he chairs to be subverted. Didn't Voltaire say "I disagree with what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it."? >It seems clear that you have an extreme dislike for USSC and Rob Bishop. Disappointment at apparently counterproductive efforts in pursuit of goals largely overlapping my own. I send no such comments to officers of HCI, CeaseFire, or VPC. (What is that last one?) - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Apr 98 18:18:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: WELCOME TO NAZI AMERICA - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 08:16:20 -0800 From: Jon Roland Subject: Fw: WELCOME TO NAZI AMERICA To: misc-activism-militia@moderators.uu.NET Alert all persons and media in the New Jersey area. - ------------------------ From: cas@alaska.net (Cas) ALL. . . . I JUST RECEIVED THIS FROM A LONG TIME FRIEND OF ABOUT A QUARTER CENTURY. HE IS AN UPSTANDING CITIZEN, FATHER AND FAMILY MAN. HE WORKS IN COMPUTERS FOR A MAJOR PHONE COMPANY. HE'S A PART TIME GUNSMITH, SHOOTER AND INSTRUCTOR. HE IS ALSO A DEACON IN THE EPISPOCAL CHURCH. THIS IS NOT A JOKE. THIS IS NOT A DRILL. Cas Gadomski Alaska All: Welcome to Nazi Germany. And so it begins. Folks this is a REAL nightmare come true. At 7:15 this morning (4/22) over a dozen machinegun armed agents of the NJ State Police broke down my front door and invaded my home screaming obsenities. We were rousted from our beds at gun point. I was ordered to the floor and when I couldn't get down on my knees fast enough because of my artificial knee and arthritis I was kicked to the floor, and my back and neck repeatedly stomped. When one trooper yanked on my arm that had been injured several years ago and I yelled in pain I was Maced and then kicked in the head at least twice resulting in a bloddy lip and head pain. Of course none of the storm troopers were wearing name tags. We were forced into our living room, made to stand about in handcuffs for about four hours in our pajamas while they trashed the house. They took all of my firearms, MOST of the ammunition (go figure), my cartridge collection of US military ammo, my lead ingots and a couple of buckets of cast bullets, all of my business records, and get this, my Gunsite 260 certificate (they left my 499 certificate), and my NRA Instructors certificate. They panicked at a dummy 60mm mortar round (the kind you can pick up in surplus stores) and a blue dummy 100lb "practice bomb" (empty sheet metal casing) yet left a couple of M79 practice grenade rounds that were on display in my office. My wife and stepson were verbally abused and my stepson was grabbed and roughed up by one young punk agent and threatened when he asked for some clothes. All of the agents were pacing nervously about pointing their weapons all over and were REALLY psyched up. They were really enjoying what they were doing. I overheard several comments about "well we got another gun nut." They joked about the fact that I was in excruciating pain from my shoulder and knee. One storm trooper wanted to know what my "fucking problem was." I was finally taken to the local PD where I was at least treated with a little respect and compassion. I was finally released on $7,500 bail and my wife took me to the hospital were I was x-rayed, catscanned and given some serious pain medication and released. None of the hospital staff could believe what happened to me. When I finally got back to our house I was amazed to find that they had left ammunition in my vault, and a lot of reloading components in my basement. We have retained a big time attorney (NRA member) but have no idea how we are going to afford him and my retirement papers are in. Your prayers for my family and I will be greatly appreciated in this terrible time. John Schaefer - - (Cas) - ---------------End of Original Message----------------- ================================================================ Constitution Society, 1731 Howe Av #370, Sacramento, CA 95825 916/568-1022, 916/450-7941VM Date: 04/23/98 Time: 08:16:20 http://www.constitution.org/ mailto:jon.roland@constitution.org ================================================================ - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 07:59:50 -0700 (PDT) From: jwaldron@halcyon.com Subject: Re: NJ Raid: The Real Target While the details continue to elude us, keep one thing in mind: John Schaffer was not the ultimate target of the raid. The true target of the raid is you and me. The purpose of terrorism is to terrorize, and the purpose of intimidation is to intimidate. A raid of the magnitude visited upon Mr. Schaffer appears to be totally unnecessary. Given the fact that he was released on $7,500. bail, the charges cannot have been too serious. What justifies a "dynamic arrest" in this case? Our masters are sending signals to the whole gun owning community: cross any line, get out of step, fail to do exactly as we say and we will respond with overwhelming force. Resistance is futile. Just do what you're told and we won't do this to you... for now. ALL OF US are the target. Joe Waldron USMC(ret) - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:23:35 -0700 From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Re: NJ Raid: The Real Target -Forwarded Received: from lists.xmission.com ([198.60.22.7]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:00:59 -0600 Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0ySjxC-0006IS-00; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 08:59:54 -0600 Received: from (mail1.halcyon.com) [206.63.63.40] by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0ySjxA-0006IK-00; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 08:59:52 -0600 Received: from 206.63.32.171 (blv-pm105-ip21.halcyon.com [206.63.32.171]) by mail1.halcyon.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA07314 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 07:59:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 07:59:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804241459.HAA07314@mail1.halcyon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: jwaldron@halcyon.com Subject: Re: NJ Raid: The Real Target To: utah-firearms@lists.xmission.com In-Reply-To: <8EDB44A.01F5007F7D.uuout@ucs.org> X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Sender: owner-utah-firearms@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: utah-firearms@lists.xmission.com While the details continue to elude us, keep one thing in mind: John Schaffer was not the ultimate target of the raid. The true target of the raid is you and me. The purpose of terrorism is to terrorize, and the purpose of intimidation is to intimidate. A raid of the magnitude visited upon Mr. Schaffer appears to be totally unnecessary. Given the fact that he was released on $7,500. bail, the charges cannot have been too serious. What justifies a "dynamic arrest" in this case? Our masters are sending signals to the whole gun owning community: cross any line, get out of step, fail to do exactly as we say and we will respond with overwhelming force. Resistance is futile. Just do what you're told and we won't do this to you... for now. ALL OF US are the target. Joe Waldron USMC(ret) - - - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:22:48 -0700 From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: details on the incident in New Jersey. (fwd) -Forwarded Received: from fs1.mainstream.net ([206.97.102.4]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 02:09:01 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id EAA24906; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 04:07:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 04:07:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma024847; Fri Apr 24 04:06:57 1998 Message-Id: <9804240803.0gw5@xpresso.seaslug.org> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: noban@xpresso.seaslug.org Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk From: noban@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: details on the incident in New Jersey. (fwd) X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list On Apr 23, Charles Riggs wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] To the recipients of this message on this list- please forward to other lists - My apologies for forwarding the message this morning from John Schaeffer about the raid on his house in New Jersey without providing additional details, but I hadn't yet spoken with John at that time, and am writing this now to fill in the background. John is 53 and a veteran of the U.S. Army, works in computers with one of the largest phone companies in the country, holds an FFL, and is a gunsmith and consultant on firearms and ammunition. His clients have included police departments in the past. He was present at the introduction of the Steyr Scout rifle this year at Whittington center, and is a friend of Col. Cooper's, who is following this affair with great interest. He maintains information about the Scout rifle on his web page with the active assistance of Steyr, who provide the photos to him. He is a verger in the Episcopal church (assists with the liturgy) and lives with his wife and stepson. He is a decent man and well-regarded by the alumni of the American Pistol Institute/Gunsite Training Center, of whom I am one, and is NOT accused of ANYTHING to do with drugs or anything of that sort. He applied to renew his FFL this year and met with several delays which were not explained. The charges against him at this time state that he provided false information on the renewal for his FFL, and other charges related to this alleged misinformation, info which John provided as required by law and in good faith. He is also charged with resisting arrest after being knocked down and kicked in the head by the New Jersey State Police, and while face-down being sprayed directly in the face with capsicum by this same officer. The charges against him were arranged by BATF, but the raid prosecuted by the NJSP for reasons unknown. The raid occurred in Tom's Point, New Jersey in the early hours of 22 April 1998 as a no-knock dynamic entry when they kicked down his door and entered the house, screaming obscenities. They could have come and knocked on the door, and arrested John and served the search warrant peacefully, but they didn't. They came in hyped up and fired up, and revelled in "getting us another gun nut" as they ran amok in his home. They knocked John down when he didn't kneel on command, but John couldn't kneel because he has severe arthritis, has had one knee replacement and is pending another. He can't even kneel in church for the services. Apparently even if you can't bend your knee for God, you'll have to do it for the NJSP! They screamed obscenities and threatened violence throughout the raid, threatened his stepson, and physically abused him by grabbing him by the throat when he asked to be allowed to get dressed- and this while standing in front of his house in his underwear. I hope this is sufficient information for the members of this list about John and this incident, and that you'll now contact the Governor of New Jersey, the NJSP, and anyone else you can think of who may be able to help us bring these thugs to task for their outrageous misconduct. Write to your representatives and ask how it is that every time BATF is around this sort of madness follows. Ask how it is that we no longer deal in a civil fashion with peaceful citizens. Demand an accounting for policemen who treat a member of the Episcopal church like a common crackhead or violent felon. If what I've told you in this message doesn't convince you to stand up for John Schaeffer and take action, then I can't think of what else to say to you, except that no citizen of this nation, no God-loving man born of woman, should ever have to suffer at the hands of men who represent the law in this way. If you agree with me, please raise your voices and speak for John, and for our common freedom. Watch six- Charles Riggs. Charles Riggs- Gunsite 1991- DVC! "Stop Crime- Be Armed- Fight Back!" Ky. Coalition to Carry Concealed (KC3) IDPA (Ky) - NRA - GOA Visit http://www.kc3.com [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:32:50 -0700 From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: WORK PLACE Homicide -Forwarded Received: from fs1.mainstream.net ([206.97.102.4]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:13:04 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id NAA21422; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:09:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:09:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma021342; Fri Apr 24 13:08:55 1998 Message-Id: <1318699310-110136611@coe.ufl.edu> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: dloftus@edu15.coe.ufl.edu Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk From: Don Loftus To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: WORK PLACE Homicide X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list This is from the CNN web page and can be found at:http://cnn.com/HEALTH/9804/23/health.jobs/index.html. What is important to me is the statement toward the end of the article: " The agency said homicides were the leading cause of work-related deaths in California, the District of Columbia, Michigan and New York between 1980 and 1994. " California, Washington D.C. and NY (most likely the highest percentage form NY City) - all these places with high levels of gun control. Are any of us surprised? The conclusions at the end are kind of a "duh?" response. Don Loftus Gainesville, FL - ---------------------------------- ATLANTA (CNN) -- Job-related deaths in the United States dropped sharply from 1980 to 1994, health officials said Thursday. But homicides have surpassed machine-related injuries to become the second-leading cause of on-the-job deaths after motor vehicle accidents. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) said murders accounted for 13.5 percent of the occupational-related deaths between 1980 and 1994. Motor vehicle crashes accounted for 23.1 percent of job-related fatalities in the same period. Homicides surpassed machinery accidents beginning in 1990. Machinery accidents were third with 13.3 percent of the deaths for the 15-year period. The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health said on-the-job deaths from motor vehicle accidents, machine-related injuries, falls and electrocutions have gradually declined since 1980, while deaths from homicide have remained relatively constant. "There is good news in that the overall fatality rate is on the decline ... at the same time there are still a remarkable number of job-related deaths that we think are inherently preventable. That's where the focus needs to be," said NIOSH director Dr. Linda Rosenstock. The agency said homicides were the leading cause of work-related deaths in California, the District of Columbia, Michigan and New York between 1980 and 1994. The institute said 88,622 workers died from job-related injuries between 1980 and 1994. There were 5,406 workplace fatalities in 1994, down from the 7,405 deaths in 1980. The institute said 3.3 million workers were treated in hospital emergency rooms for occupational injuries in 1996. The CDC has estimated that the cost of work-related injuries and fatalities is more than $121 billion per year. An institute report in 1996 found that workers were at greater risk of homicide or assault if they were involved in the exchange of money, had routine contact with the public, worked alone or in small numbers, worked late or very early hours, or worked in high crime areas. The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report.# - - ------------------------------ End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #48 **********************************