From: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com (utah-firearms-digest) To: utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: utah-firearms-digest V2 #50 Reply-To: utah-firearms-digest Sender: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk utah-firearms-digest Tuesday, April 28 1998 Volume 02 : Number 050 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:50:04 -0600 From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Re: Walter Williams in Today's Deseret News I re-sent Walter Williams' article to quite a few of my friends. I received the following response from a woman who's been a friend since high school, and whose in-laws are Holocaust survivors: One of the central points that is overlooked is that the German Jews considered themselves Germans first. My husbands grandparents were prime examples. even after the war, Ivan's grandfather still insisted that "German made" was ultimately the best. The German Jews did not see themselves as different or apart as the rest of the German population & that of, with very few exceptions, eastern europe. The long standing & deeply rooted anti- semitism was always there & still exists. German Jews could not believe that the country they believed in & fought for would betray them. A few years ago , my father-in-law went to Poland to see his home & go to the camps. He needed "closure." My Mother-in-law, while she was alive would never go with him, & he went after her death. He went to the town where he was born & where he lived until he was a teen & stood outside the address that was his as a child. There was a different house there, but he stood in front of the street number to absorb his surroundings & remember what had been. a man can out of the house yelling & cursing him, "You Jews are all alike. This is not your home it is mine, get away, you can't have my home ." My father- in-law had not intention of trying to take this man's home. He merely wanted to stand & think but he was so angered by this Jew-hater that he went to a lawyer to talk to him. The Polish lawyer informed him that he could try to recover the property but it would cost him a lot of money & time & there was no guarantee he would get anything. My father-in-law decided not to pursue this action but he was so angered that he came home & told everyone. Are you aware of how few Jews are left in Poland, a handful & many do not even practice any form of Judaism. Yet the Polish govt & political parties still use us a scapegoats for their political agenda. It is nauseating. *************************************** This is Sarah again. In the late 1930's virtually no one in Germany believed he was living in a fascist state. The Germans were pleased with their "good economy", the 1928 and 1938 Gun Control Acts were viewed as largely irrelevant, and even the Jews thought that they were "good Germans" no different from anyone else. We now know they were wrong. So here we are in 1998. Virtually no American believes he is living in a fascist state. We're told our economy is booming (although I can't say I've personally noticed any improvement in my standard of living). The Gun Control Acts of 1934 and 1968 are regarded as mostly irrelevant. The later Brady Act and weapons bans have attracted a bit more attention, but most people still seem to believe they're either irrelevant, or somehow "necessary to stop crime". Most gun owners consider themselves "Good Americans", believe they live in a free country, and that nothing "bad" could possibly happen to them in the United States. Will history prove _us_ wrong as well? Sarah Sarah Thompson, M.D. http://www.therighter.com A well-regulated population being necessary to the security of a police state, the right of the Government to keep and destroy arms shall not be infringed. - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:17:20 -0600 From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Re: Bennett / Bishop debacle At 07:26 PM 4/25/98 -0700, you wrote: >We should insist that our pro-gun representatives exhibit ethical, >not merely quasi-ethical, behavior. This _sounds_ good. But if we recalled every representative who exhibited less than perfectly ethical behavior, we'd have to recall all of them. (I can think of only one or two Congresspeople who meet _my_ standards of ethical and even they're not perfect.) Lobbying is like advertising; you can only demand so much objective truth. You may be able to insist that tobacco companies warn people that cigarettes are dangerous, but you can't stop Camel from insisting that its products are better than Marlboro or vice versa. Further, one can only retain a lobbyist to advocate for or against a certain issue. You can't control which other issues he lobbies, nor can you mandate that he resign from his full-time (non-legislative) job. Yes, I agree that lobbyists and representatives should remove themselves from areas of obvious conflict of interest. I would not personally support someone whose behavior I considered unethical. But I think what you're suggesting amounts to restricting the right of freedom of association, and I'm not willing to go that far. >> Doesn't it make more sense to insist that if they support >> the First Amendment, they must also support the Second? > >The hypocrites support neither, except in the breach. Agreed! >> only Hatch and Leavitt failed to denounce tyranny. > >Take 'em down from their elective offices. Well neither of them (nor Bennett) will get my vote. Somehow I doubt it will make a difference. >> If you're waiting for USSC to formally disavow and denounce the NRA, >> don't hold your breath. > >But don't let either endorse politicians opposed to the Second amendment, >or any part of the Bill of Rights. Those are my major differences with >the NRA and ACLU. As they say; 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 is counting >with the ACLU, while for the NRA it is 2, and then they consider any >form of permissive license compatible with "shall not be infringed." I will have a vote (but certainly not _control_) of USSC candidate endorsements. I have no say whatever in what the NRA does. So how exactly should I "not let either" endorse bad candidates? >I meant as lobbyist. I haven't seen Mr. Bishop's contract, nor do I know if one exists. However, it is my opinion (and mine alone) that there is no more conflict of interest because he is Chairman of the Utah GOP than there is a conflict of interest because his non-legislative job is as a teacher and the UEA endorses gun control. If the Utah GOP doesn't want their chair working as a lobbyist, that's _their_ problem. >> For that matter, what did you do to oppose the abuses? > >Asked Bill Quist and Gary Utt to replace our amendment flyers >they trashed. They refused, and claimed they were abandoned trash. >They also alleged there were rules against such distribution, but >no such rule appears on the proposed convention rules provided >delegates and candidates. Have you pursued this either personally, as a group, or via an attorney? Has anyone else? I certainly hope this doesn't just fall thru the cracks. >As the power behind the throne, perhaps they think they're above >both, as well as any rules, and that delegates only serve the purpose >of providing the appearance of lawful process. And isn't this pretty much true of _all_ levels of government? >Has JPFO disappointed you? (Other than maintaining a nearly invisible >profile) What would it take to organize a Utah affiliate? I suspect >a name change for the affiliate might be needed here in Utah, where >Gov. Bamberger, a Jew, was Utah's first Gentile Governor. Any disputes I have with organizations or individuals who are not part of this list are private matters. I don't believe in sniping behind peoples' backs. I have no status in JPFO other than as a charter member. I don't know their position on local or state chapters. I also don't know their position on name changes, although my impression is that they'd oppose it. But since the LDS majority consider themselves to be part of the Children of Israel (at least according to my understanding of LDS doctrine), and thus closely related to Jews, I don't really see why it should be an issue. I do know that JPFO is incorporated under 501(c)4, which makes them an educational organization and expressly prohibits them from lobbying. That might be a consideration if you're contemplating an organization other than USSC that can lobby the legislature. Sarah - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:36:25 -0600 From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Teens and Guns >Subject: Teens and Guns > >http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=2553892292-501 > >> [INFOBEAT | ][Profile | ][Feedback | ][About | ][Terms | ][Custom] >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------- >> [Image] >> ----------------------------------------------------------- >> >> 02:39 PM ET 04/26/98 >> >> Police praise man in Pa. dance hall shooting >> >> >> EDINBORO, Pa. (Reuters) - Police praised a banquet hall >> owner Sunday for apprehending the suspect in a school dance >> shooting that killed a popular teacher and wounded another as >> well as two students. >> Authorities said James Strand, armed with a shotgun and >> worried about the safety of his family, confronted Andrew Wurst, >> 14, in ``a grassy area'' after Friday night's shooting and >> ''coaxed'' him into dropping his gun and giving up peacefully. >> ``Mr. Strand used a great deal, I mean a great deal, of >> judgment on his part at that time to bring the situation to a >> close,'' Mark Zaleski, a state police spokesman, said at a news >> conference. >> Strand owns Nick's Place restaurant where authorities allege >> Wurst, an eigth-grader at Parker Middle School, opened fire with >> a small caliber handgun at a graduation dance, killing John >> Gillette, 46. >> Two students, both 14, were wounded and have since been >> released from the hospital. Another teacher was grazed by a >> bullet and did not require medical attention. >> Police said little else about the case Sunday, citing an >> ongoing investigation. >> ``We're exploring a number of possible motives,'' said >> Zaleski, who would not say what leads authorities were pursuing. >> Wurst remained at the Erie County prison charged as an adult >> with murder, while the town of Edinboro tried to cope with the >> violence, the loss of life and the unwanted attention as another >> rural American community in the spotlight for a deadly >> school-related shooting. >> Flags flew at half-staff in the town 100 miles north of >> Pittsburgh and plans were on track to open Parker Middle School >> for regular classes Monday. >> Gillette, 46, was remembered at a church service Sunday. The >> science teacher, former football coach and father of three >> children, was chaperoning the dance when he was shot. >> Parker school students have been instructed not to speak to >> the media. But reports have said Wurst told students he would >> make the dance ``memorable.'' Others said they did not know what >> that meant, if anything. >> Zaleski would not confirm whether Wurst had made that >> statement, and he said police would not ``get caught up in the >> rumor mill.'' >> The Edinboro tragedy was the fourth deadly school-related >> shooting in the United States in the past six months. Four >> students were killed at a middle school in Jonesboro, Ark., last >> month; three students were killed at a high school in West >> Paducah, Ky., in December, and last October, two students were >> killed at a high school in Pearl, Miss. >> ^REUTERS@ > >Interesting how in two of those cases the criminal student was stopped >by a law-abiding adult with a firearm.... Kinda makes you wonder if >more armed teachers or "gun free school zones" is the best solution! > >Sarah Sarah Thompson, M.D. http://www.therighter.com After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in a society where the only people allowed guns are the police and the military. William Burroughs (b. 1914), U.S. author. "The War Universe," taped conversation - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:52:46 -0600 From: "S. Thompson" Subject: The Salt Lake Tribune -- Nation/World Why isn't HCI out campaigning to disarm police? Sarah http://www.sltrib.com/04271998/nation_w/nation_w.htm > Monday, April 27, 1998 > --------------------------------------------------------- > > Suicide by Cop: Two Victims, One Alive, One Dead > BY TODD LEWAN [PHOTO] > THE ASSOCIATED PRESS > Henry Brown, 32, wields two > pistols in a January 1997 > SYOSSET, N.Y. -- standoff with officers in > Only after pumping three Shelby, N.C. ``Do your job!'' > bullets into Moshe a suicidal Brown screamed. > Pergament did Officer ``It's gonna end today!'' An > Anthony Sica learn the officer killed him after one > brutal truth: He had of his guns discharged. (Lee > killed a college student McLeod/The Shelby Star) > who had threatened him > with nothing more than a toy gun. > Sica stood over the bleeding body wondering what had > happened here. > A 19-year-old had raced his brand-new Honda Accord > up and down the Long Island Expressway in a rainstorm > for 40 minutes, sideswiping cars and trucks. He had > pulled over as soon as the police cruiser's lights > flashed and jumped out with a plastic replica of a > .38-caliber revolver in his hand. > Sica had screamed, practically begged, for him to > drop the gun. Why didn't he drop it? Why did he keep > coming closer? Twelve feet. Ten feet. Seven feet. > Until the semiautomatic Sig Saur barked in Sica's > hand. > It was only after an ambulance took the body away > that detectives found the envelope on the front seat of > the Honda. It was addressed ``To the officer who shot > me,'' and inside, on a Hallmark card, was a neatly > written note. > ``Officer, > ``It was a plan. I'm sorry to get you involved. I > just needed to die. Please remember that this was all my > doing. You had no way of knowing. > ``Moe Pergament.'' > The coroner's report certified Pergament's death as > a homicide caused by ``gunshot wounds of torso with > perforations of lung, heart, liver, stomach and > intestine.'' The police report classified it a > justifiable homicide. > But what happened that stormy November night has > another name: Police-assisted suicide. > ``It's another form of euthanasia, like when people > reach out for Dr. Kevorkian,'' said Harvey Schlossberg, > retired director of psychological services for the New > York City police. ``Only here, people are in mental pain > and the doctor is the cop.'' > No one knows how many people manipulate police into > killing them; no national studies have been done. But > two recent regional studies suggest that it is > surprisingly common. > Researchers who examined hundreds of police > shootings in British Columbia and in Los Angeles County > found that in at least 10 percent of the cases, the dead > and wounded had wanted to be killed. > Every time it happens, there are victims on both > sides of the gun. ``It's an officer's worst nightmare,'' > said Clinton Van Zandt, an FBI supervisory special agent > who teaches hostage negotiation at the agency's > Quantico, Va., headquarters. Van Zandt is an expert on > the phenomenon. He also knows it firsthand. > On June 17, 1981, Van Zandt commanded police > officers and FBI during a 3 1/2-hour standoff with > William Griffin, who had taken hostages inside a > Rochester, N.Y., bank. Griffin's only demand: that > police execute him. > Van Zandt refused. So Griffin ordered teller > Margaret Moore, a single mother of a baby boy, to stand > by the front exit. With his shotgun, he blasted her > through the glass doors. Then he walked over and pressed > his face against the full-length window, allowing > sharpshooters to kill him. > In a diary entry dated 13 months earlier, a diary > filled with passages about a failing marriage and a lost > job, Griffin wrote: ``I'm going to make the sheriff take > my life.'' > ``At night,'' Van Zandt said, ``I still picture the > teller being blown out the door of that bank.'' > It's not just a big-city phenomenon: Police-assisted > suicide has stung communities across the United States, > from leafy, suburban towns to rural outbacks. > -- Shortly after 1 p.m. Feb. 6, Joseph Hoffman, 35, > held up a First Union Bank in Burlington, N.C., with a > pellet gun that resembled a semiautomatic pistol. Then > he strolled out the front door and through a mall next > door, carrying a red sack full of cash on his shoulder. > On the way to his car a quarter-mile from the bank, he > walked right past a marked police cruiser. When two > officers ordered him to drop his gun, Hoffman aimed it > at them and was shot 10 times. A note addressed ``Dear > Police'' was found in his apartment. It read: ``Please > make sure my sister in New York gets these books and no > one else.'' An entry in another notebook dated four days > earlier read: ``My only worry is that the caliber of > shot will not put me fully away.'' > -- On Jan. 6, 1997, outside the Shelby, N.C., Police > Station, Sheriff Dan Crawford tried to talk Henry Brown, > a 32-year-old security guard, out of his suicide-by-cop > plan. With a .38-caliber Rossi in one hand and a .357 > Magnum in the other, Brown screamed at the two dozen > officers surrounding him: ``Do your job! It's gonna end > today!'' Suddenly, one of Brown's pistols discharged. > Hearing the gunshot, a marksman put a shotgun slug > through his heart. > Freak tragedies? > ``Afraid not,'' said Van Zandt. ``These aren't > flukes. This is real. And we better start recognizing > that. This is not just going to disappear.'' > Smarter Policing: Suicide by cop may have > implications for police-community relations across the > United States. > It ``raises a lot of questions about policing in > America,'' said Nicholas Pastore of the Criminal Justice > Policy Foundation in New Haven, Conn. ``It cries out for > `smarter' policing. We need cops who listen to > communities instead of telling them what they need; cops > who understand that mental illness is more than just > disruptive behavior; cops who are trained to think, > `Hey, is this a crook or a person crying out for help?' > '' > Experts suspect suicide by cop has gone on for > decades, but no one had studied it until 1996, when > Richard Parent, a Canadian constable, examined cases of > fatal police shootings in British Columbia from 1980 to > 1994. His conclusion: 10 percent of the shootings were > suicides by cop. > The figure seemed hard to believe until a recent > study by H. Range Hutson, research director at Harvard > Medical School, found even higher numbers in California. > Hutson examined more than 425 fatal and nonfatal > officer-involved shootings in Los Angeles County from > 1987 to 1997 and found that nearly 17 percent were > suicides by cop. > These cases were unambiguous: Those who had been > killed or wounded had left suicide notes, had told > friends or relatives about their plans or had pleaded > with police to kill them. Some had attempted suicide > before. > Many police departments prefer not to acknowledge > the phenomenon, said Vivian Lord, a criminal-justice > professor at the University of North Carolina who found > 73 attempted suicides by cop in 30 North Carolina police > departments from 1993 to 1997. > ``It's a sensitive area,'' she said. ``Officers > don't like to be second-guessed by Monday morning > quarterbacks.'' > They don't like to second-guess themselves, either. > ``You cannot second-guess yourself because if you > hesitate and you're wrong, it could cost a life -- your > life, or some innocent person's life,'' said Lt. Kevin > Kaslin, of the Nassau County Police Department in > Mineola, N.Y., which investigated the Pergament killing. > > Post-Shooting Suits: Police also are wary of > wrongful-death lawsuits. On March 2, the U.S. Supreme > Court decided that cities can be sued for inadequate > police training that leads to death or injury -- even > when mentally ill or suicidal people threaten officers > with firearms. The ruling came in a case brought by the > wife of suicidal man who manipulated Muskogee, Okla., > police into killing him in 1994. > Some police say better training and improved police > tactics might indeed help prevent some of these deaths. > Kevin Gilmartin, a former hostage negotiator who now > works as a police psychologist for the Tucson Police > Department, says some departments are too reliant on > high-tech weapons and ``surgical'' shooting techniques. > ``The skills of the negotiator have taken a back seat to > SWAT teams and techno-guns,'' he said. > David Klinger, a former Los Angeles police officer > who advises SWAT teams on training and tactical matters > around the country, says: ``It makes sense for police to > approach a case and ask: `Could it be that suicide by > cop is at work here?' '' With better tactical training, > he said, ``more times than not, the officers won't be in > a vulnerable position so that they have to fire.'' > Guilt and Anger: Of all the questions that surround > these deaths, the most puzzling is why anyone would > choose this way to die. > Perhaps feelings of guilt or shame lead some people > to seek punishment from an authority figure, said > Parent, the Canadian constable. ``The police are perfect > for this. They play the role of surrogate parents in our > society.'' > Or perhaps police-assisted suicide indicates anger > at authority. ``The person may be saying, `I'm so angry > at you that I'll have you kill me, and you'll have to > live with it,'' said Michael Welner, an assistant > professor at the New York University School of Medicine. > > In some cases, a skewed interpretation of the > religious prohibition against suicide might be at work. > ``Suicide for most people is forbidden religiously, but > if you do it confronting the cops, somehow it's OK,'' > said Schlossberg, the police psychiatrist. > Van Zandt thinks it may be simpler than all that. > Perhaps, he said, they are just looking for a foolproof, > dead-certain way to die. ``Police have the guns,'' he > said. ``They have the training to react to potentially > life-threatening situations with accurate and deadly > force, and they are as close as the telephone.'' That's > how Matthew Pyers saw it. > If he ran his car into a concrete wall, he said in a > recent interview, ``I might have lived through it and > been paralyzed. But with a gun at close range, it'd be > more likely to kill me.'' > Failed Plan: Depressed, drunk and suicidal, the > 19-year-old raced his 1986 Oldsmobile Cutlass as fast as > it would go in the pre-dawn darkness of March 23, 1997, > from a college party in Hoboken, N.J., to his hometown > of Wallingford, Conn. His desperate hope: That a highway > officer would chase him, catch him, kill him. But no one > noticed. > So Pyres headed for the Wallingford Police > Department. He circled the station, honking the horn, > squealing the tires, and bolted off, squad cars in > pursuit. > Pyres led police on a chase through four towns. When > he noticed they had given up, he doubled back and rammed > his car into the rear of one of the cruisers. Then he > pulled over and jumped out with a champagne bottle in > his hand. > He banged the bottle on the car hood and taunted the > officers: ``You better kill me or I'm going to kill > you!'' He ignored their orders to drop the bottle and > fought off the pepper spray they shot at him. He waved > the bottle and shouted, ``Shoot me! Shoot me!'' > Officer Mark Poisson fired once. Pyres crumpled, a > hollow-point bullet in his abdomen. > The bullet hit no bones or major organs. Today, he's > on a different regimen of medication for depression and > has resumed his college studies in engineering. > ``When I get into a depression,'' Pyres said, ``I > don't think of anyone but myself. But after he shot me, > I thought about the officer, what I could be doing to > him. Seeing his face, that horrible look, I realized how > the officer would probably regret this for the rest of > his life.'' > > > [Monday Navigation Bar] > -------------------------------------------------- > ) Copyright 1998, The Salt Lake Tribune > > All material found on Utah OnLine is copyrighted The Salt > Lake Tribune and associated news services. No material may > be reproduced or reused without explicit permission from > The Salt Lake Tribune. > -------------------------------------------------- > Contact The Salt Lake Tribune or Utah OnLine by clicking > here. NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 00:15:29 -0600 From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Keep Big Tent Open Gee... now we're "oddballs" and a "fringe element" handing out "propaganda". I'm _so_ glad the Trib is around to defend our rights..... Sarah http://www.sltrib.com/1998/apr/04251998/opinion/29960.htm > [Image] > [Image] [Image] Saturday, April 25, 1998 [Image] [Image] > > Keep Big Tent Open > > > It was > understandably frustrating for Utah Republican Party leaders to deal > with two fringe elements at their convention last week. But the party > looked silly using a heavy hand to silence them. > Convention organizers had two people arrested for refusing to > cease passing out propaganda and the other hauled off the stage by > armed deputies for refusing to leave until he had a chance to speak. > Convention organizers could have handled the matter better by > ignoring these folks. > People with nutty things to say are usually disregarded by the > mainstream. Tolerating these oddballs, albeit annoying and > frustrating, is the price everyone pays for the First Amendment. And > the First Amendment is particularly central to a political rally, > whether privately sponsored or convened on a street corner. In fact, > the First Amendment is the foundation of any political gathering. > So these two fringe groups, who are not truly representative of > Republican Party positions, should have been given the opportunity to > participate in the election process. Many party leaders pointed out > that reality after the arrests and removal occurred. > A hurdle for the Utah Republican Party is dealing with its > extreme factions. And, the left-leaning media tend to raise that bar > for the Republican Party. They delight in portraying all Republicans > with the same brush as these fringe folks. It is arguably more > tempting, then, for Republicans to silence its far-out element than > for Democrats to do the same. > But, in fact, extremist elements also have splintered the Utah > Democratic Party into shards of nearly nothing. Conventional > Democrats want nothing to do with new Democrats, and moderates tend > to opt out of the philosophical debate. > Tolerance and patience from the majority, mainstream, middle -- > in short supply last weekend at the Republican state convention -- is > the only successful, long-term way to deal with fringe groups. > > > > [Image] [Saturday Navigation Bar] [Image] > > [Image] > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ) Copyright 1998, The Salt Lake Tribune > > All material found on Utah OnLine is copyrighted The Salt Lake > Tribune and associated news services. No material may be reproduced > or reused without explicit permission from The Salt Lake Tribune. > -------------------------------------------------- > Contact The Salt Lake Tribune or Utah OnLine by clicking here. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:17:02 -0600 From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: Libertarian Party of Utah's Response to KSL Editorial, "Guns and Little Girls" 28 April, 1998 Dear Editor The Libertarian Party of Utah takes strong exception to KSL's editorial of April 10, 1998, "Guns And Little Girls." The freedoms to own and carry weapons guaranteed by the second amendment to the United States Constitution and Article I of the Utah State Constitution are no less important or relevant today than they have ever been. They are no less important or relevant than the guarantees of religious freedom, freedom of the press, the right to free speech, security in one's person and papers, or any other freedom guaranteed in the Bill of Rights. All are essential to the preservation of a free society. Those who hold their right to life, and the possession of tools designed to defend that life, dear, are being no more callused or obstinate in lobbying for the preservation of those rights than Rosa Parks was in refusing to quietly sit in the back of the bus. In fact, lawful gun owners have yet to stage any of the acts of widespread civil disobedience common to the civil rights movement. Neither have they turned to the courts to force their views onto society as many other groups have done. Rather, they have chosen and seem quite content to work lawfully within our legislative process. For this they--the "gun lobby" as you disdainfully call them--deserve praise, not chastisement. Unlawful threats to life and limb do occur in schools, churches, hospitals, universities, and grocery stores as well as on the street. Peaceful, law-abiding adults should not forfeit their right to defend themselves simply because of geography. In fact, had a police officer, armed teacher, or other law-abiding adult in possession of a firearm been present at the school in Jonesboro, there may very well not have been any children's graves for KSL to use for misguided political purposes. Limited resources prevent putting a peace officer on every corner or in every school. And Alabama State law guaranteed no other law-abiding adult would be in possession of a weapon on any Alabama school grounds. Given the tragic results in Alabama, why would Utah even want to consider duplicating the situation by restricting our concealed weapons permit holders? Will the gunphobes never learn that criminals don't obey any laws? The Libertarian Party of Utah supports the right of private property owners, including churches, to limit access to their non-public-accommodation property in whatever manner suites them. We do not believe current law impairs this right in any way with regard to firearms or other weapons and are opposed to any governmental attempts to decide what private property owners may do. While supporting private property owners' right to exclude weapons, we do question the wisdom of creating "Rob Me/Rape Me zones", aka "gun-free zones". We also maintain that ALL government and publicly owned property, save courts, prisons, and airports, must fully honor the rights of law-abiding adults--including the right to possess weapons for self-defense. We do congratulate KSL for being honest enough to admit they are choosing to ignore and address the root causes of the most tragic and heinous crime in Jonesboro in favor of focusing on the tools used to commit the crime. We can't help but wonder if this same (lack of) logic will be used when forming editorial positions on drunk driving. It will be interesting to see if the easy and ready availability of cars will be blamed for DUI accidents. Blaming guns for crime is like blaming flies for garbage. No law that restricts law-abiding citizens will have any effect on those individuals who would exploit a defenseless citizenry. Indeed, a disarmed person is an open invitation for trouble. Criminals are not thwarted by laws. Guns do not cause crime, people do. Punish the wrongdoer. Do not seek to corrupt the power of government to weaken the good people of Utah's right to an armed self-defense. Charles Hardy Treasurer Libertarian Party of Utah 801.523.3817 - -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these things I'm fairly certain 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it. "There are no victims, only volunteers. You volunteer by appearing uncertain and afraid. You volunteer by being (as grass-eaters invariably are) unprepared to deal with the dangers of life." - Cooper's Corner - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 14:01:43 -0600 From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Re: Libertarian Party of Utah's Response to KSL Editorial, "Guns and Little Girls" Yay, Charles! My thanks to you and the Utah Libertarian Party. Sarah At 12:17 PM 4/28/98 -0600, you wrote: > >28 April, 1998 > >Dear Editor > >The Libertarian Party of Utah takes strong exception to KSL's >editorial of April 10, 1998, "Guns And Little Girls." - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:02:05 -0600 From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: KSL Editorial Position, The LDS Church, and the NRA I'd like to pass along a couple tidbits of info concerning KSL Editorial Position, the LDS Church, and the NRA. There is some perception that KSL Editorial policy is set by, endorsed by, or otherwise reflects the views of the LDS church. This is not an outragous perception when one realizes KSL is owned by Bonneville Communications which is owned by the LDS church. For me it is a daunting thought when KSL takes editorial positions contrary to my own deeply held beliefs. As an active LDS, I am naturally loathe to go contrary to the views of LDS church leadership. I suspect many other LDS are in the same boat. This puts us in the possible position of battling the LDS church on the issue of CCW. Fortunatly, we need not fear this--at least not at this point. I attend church with the CEO of KSL. I asked him this last Sunday who sets editorial policy at KSL. He informed me editorial policy and content is set and approved by the KSL board. It is not set by the LDS church in any way. Further, he said the church occasionally lets the board know they didn't much appreciate some position that has been taken. Specifically he said KSL occasionally takes some lumps from church leadership over some position KSL has taken. I know of no case where such postions have been reversed. So while there may be some level of influence from church leadership, KSL editorial positions are not set by and do not necessarily reflect LDS church positions. Now, I haven't taken time to write this to defend LDS church policy or lack thereof on CCW. I've written because I believe in politics you should pick your battles carefully. Battling the LDS church is a loser in this State, IMO. Avoid it whenever possible. CCW is an area where anyone who wants to can still avoid battling the LDS church because to date the LDS church has issued no official position on CCW laws. They did issue a very general press release that guns in church are "inappropriate". BYU issued a statement saying they were restricting guns on campus. Certainly the anti-gunners--even the very anti-LDS anti-gunners-- will latch onto these and to KSL's recent editorial and try to say the LDS church has endorsed legislative restrictions on CCW. Pro-gunners need to be, IMHO, savvy enough to not play ball by those rules. We don't need to or want to take on the LDS church or appear anti-LDS. We can support the church's right to limit access to their churches and temples. We can support the right of private property like BYU to limit access. But we don't have to ascede something that has not been said. The LDS church has yet to publicly endorse any legislation re CCW. Until they do, there is no need to pcik a fight with them. As for the NRA, it became clear while talking with the KSL CEO that KSL attributes a large number of responses received on their recent editorial to "the NRA" organizing the internet, etc. I can only think of two ways to overcome this perception to any degree. 1. Somehow make it clear you write as an individual and not part of any organized effort. If you are not a member of the NRA, say so in your letter. If you happen to be a school teacher, public employee, etc, SAY so. If you are a housewife, a cub scout leader, sunday school teacher, etc, SAY so. Make it clear that everyday, "normal" people and not just "NRA gun nuts" care about this issue. If you do not have a CCW let them know. Finally, make sure your letters are calm, rational, intelligent sounding. This doesn't mean don't write if you aren't a literary expert. But just don't go off half-cocked about conspiracy theories, black helicopters, or "liberals". I don't know who "fun" is who sent the letter to KSL, but it would have been better for our cause had s/he not written at all. 2. More importantly, they need to hear from a lot of different people. It doesn't do any good for them to get 5 letters apiece from USSC board members, Libertarian party officers, or anyone else they can identify as an "NRA gun nut." They discount those out of hand. If you haven't written yet, do so--as an individual concerned about your rights. If you have, get a friend, a spouse, a lover, a co-worker, a mature child, a parent, or anyone else you can to write a letter. I'm guesing that paper letters will carry more weight than email at this point as KSL expects that the NRA has and will flood the internet. Help someone write their letter if they don't know where to start. If you want to write a long letter, consider breaking it into two parts and getting someone else to sign one of them and send it in. Print them on diffent machines or using different fonts and send in different style envelopes on different days from different POs. Anyway, enough rambling for now. I hope some of this is of use to somebody. - -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these things I'm fairly certain 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it. "You do not examine legislation in the light of the benefits it will convey if properly administered, but in the light of the wrongs it would do and the harm it would cause if improperly administered." -- Lyndon Baines Johnson, former Senator and President. - - ------------------------------ End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #50 **********************************