From: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com (utah-firearms-digest) To: utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: utah-firearms-digest V2 #51 Reply-To: utah-firearms-digest Sender: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk utah-firearms-digest Thursday, April 30 1998 Volume 02 : Number 051 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:05:53 -0600 From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: Re: Libertarian Party of Utah's Response to KSL Editorial, "Guns and Little Girls" Our pleasure. It was sent to KSL, DesNews,and Tribune. If anyone sees any portion of it in the media, I'd love to hear about it. On Tue, 28 Apr 1998, "S. Thompson" posted: >Yay, Charles! My thanks to you and the Utah Libertarian Party. > >Sarah > > - -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these things I'm fairly certain 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it. "You do not examine legislation in the light of the benefits it will convey if properly administered, but in the light of the wrongs it would do and the harm it would cause if improperly administered." -- Lyndon Baines Johnson, former Senator and President. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:09:21 -0600 From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: Weapon Ban at Hospital From today's front page Tribune. I do not have a CCW. However, I think those who do need to send a letter to the hospital immediately challenging their adminstrative ruling before it gains the force of law. Certainly, the hospital should have secure areas where guns are not allowed. They have facitlities to check weapons already. But there is no way they should be able to prohibit weapons from cars or anyplace on the grounds where there is not security to protect the disarmed. A letter to Sen Waddoups would also be in order. is his email address. If every piece of government owned property is allowed to circumvent or ignore the CCW law with "adminstrative" rulings, it won't be long before your CCW is invalid in about 90% of the State. Wednesday, April 29, 1998 Hospital To Ban Guns Starting Friday BY JUDY FAHYS THE SALT LAKE TRIBUNE The state's largest mental institution -- the Utah State Hospital in Provo -- is about to become one of the few places in Utah where a concealed-weapons permit is not recognized. A gun ban is set to take effect Friday. Cameras are not permitted in the hospital. Nor are pocket knives or illegal drugs. And, although administrators have long carried out a policy barring firearms, they never have had the force of law behind them until now. But, even before it becomes effective, some gun-rights advocates contend the prohibition goes far beyond what state law allows. ``I don't think they have got the right to do that,'' said Sen. Mike Waddoups, a Taylorsville Republican and gun-rights advocate. ``If [weapons] are prohibited on the entire campus, they are going too far.'' Recent Tribune Coverage Olympics May Unload On Gun Laws in Utah, (3-15-98) Lawmakers Can't Hide From This Gun Fight, (1-11-98) Utah Legislative Action on Guns 1998 Waddoups sponsored the 1995 law that made concealed-weapons permits valid ``without restriction.'' An ``administrative rule'' implementing the ban is set to go into effect Friday, as long as the hospital doesn't receive any objections. It would apply to state employees and visitors, as well as the hospital's 340 patients. Hospital officials have had the authority to keep weapons from parts of the facility since 1996. Aware of the risks inherent in some state-operated facilities, legislators built a few exceptions into the concealed-weapons law to permit ``secure areas'' in courts, jails and mental hospitals. Airports were added in 1997. Yet, officials at the state hospital never undertook the process necessary to implement the law at their facility. On April 1, they published a new rule that will give the hospital's longstanding practices some legal teeth. Until now, the hospital has relied on its ``no weapons'' policy, which is declared to all on a sign at the facility's entrance. ``Probably all these years we were doing it by policy [rather than law] and, frankly, we always have felt protected under the policy,'' said Janina Chilton, spokeswoman for the state's Division of Mental Health. ``This [new rule] raises the bar.'' Dangerous weapons have been a problem at the hospital from time to time, according to Chilton. She recalled an incident in the early 1980s in which a hospital security officer was shot in the leg by a former patient who was being escorted off the grounds. In the early '90s, an employee was killed with a a knife a patient got from the kitchen. Most commonly, though, the hospital gets into hassles over the policy with law enforcement personnel who are directed to check their weapons in safe boxes outside patient units. And hospital staff sometimes bristle about being told they should not bring their concealed weapons to work. Chilton said some employees have complained about the policy, but she added, ``We don't even want them in the cars.'' The new rule would make it clear no weapons are allowed anywhere on the 325-acre campus. ``Weapons, contraband, illegal substances, firearms, such as, but not limited to, pistols, sawed-off rifles, revolvers, or any device that could be used as a weapon are prohibited on the campus of the Utah State Hospital,'' the new rule says. ``Law enforcement personnel may bring their weapons onto the campus. However, they must secure their weapon in a secure weapon storage area before entering a treatment unit.'' Peter Heinbecker, director of the state hospital's forensics unit, was surprised to learn that such a law was not already in place. ``We can't have people with guns on our unit,'' said the doctor, whose unit oversees many patients who have been referred to the hospital from the criminal justice system. Meanwhile, there is spotty enforcement of the current no-gun policy. A metal detector purchased for the entrance to the forensics ward has not been installed, and visitors sometimes enter the ward without a pat-down search, said Heinbecker. He called the campuswide gun ban ``a fantastic idea'' and pointed out many patients are free to wander the grounds where they might be able to get weapons that could be used against themselves or other people. ``I don't know why anyone needs to bring weapons onto the grounds,'' he said. Waddoups pointed out that a legal opinion issued earlier this year by the Legislature's General Counsel specifically said it is illegal for the University of Utah to ban weapons from its campus and facilities. It also said there was no legal basis for a Department of Human Resource Management rule that prohibited state employees from carrying firearms in state facilities, vehicles or while on state business. Waddoups agreed there is some justification for prohibiting certain people from having firearms -- ``particularly patients'' -- in certain parts of the state hospital. ``It has to be addressed rationally like anyplace else,'' he said. © Copyright 1998, The Salt Lake Tribune All material found on Utah OnLine is copyrighted The Salt Lake Tribune and associated news services. No material may be reproduced or reused without explicit permission from The Salt Lake Tribune. Contact The Salt Lake Tribune or Utah OnLine by clicking here. - -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these things I'm fairly certain 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it. "Those rights, then, which God and nature have established, and are therefore called natural rights, such as life and liberty, need not the aid of human laws to be more effectually invested in every man than they are; neither do they receive any additional strength when declared by the municipal laws to be inviolate. On the contrary, no human legislature has power to abridge or destroy them, unless the owner shall himself commit some act that amounts to a forfeiture." -- Sir William Blackstone - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:15:55 -0600 From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: Email to Legislators FYI, I've sent the following to a couple legislators. Please take a moment and send something to your State rep and senator. Feel free to use any ideas below you like, but please reword enough to make it original. (Scott should particularly interested in the part about mass transit and bikes. :) Dear, I'm writing about the front page story in today's Tribune, included below. It seems the Utah State Hospital in Provo is attempting to ignore State law with regard to concealed weapons permits by banning all weapons from ALL hospital property, including inside private cars. Undoubtedly, a mental health facility should be free to implement secure areas where weapons are prohibited. It seems the hospital has long done so providing secure storage facilities for the weapons of peace officers entering the area. But by no stretch of the imagination is the entire campus a secure area. There is not adequate security on the grounds or parking lots to declare these secure areas. Neither are there storage facilities available for guests, employees, or peace officers to secure their weapons in these areas. No government agency should be able to declare ANY area or land a "secure area" and thus prohibit the carry of legally permitted weapons unless there is a compelling need to decare the area secure AND REAL security measures (armed guards, metal detectors, controlled access) are in place AND secure storage facilities are provided for legally carried weapons. Lacking secure storage, any rule or law prohibiting weapons in one area effectively extends all the way to the nearest area where the weapon may be safely stored. For anyone using mass transit, walking, or riding a bike, that area is their home and they are effectively disarmed and defenseless from the time they leave home to the time they return. Forcing people to choose between being able to defend themselves and using mass/alternate transportation is not the way to encourage the use of mass/alternate transportation. The State Hospital's ban of weapons even in cars is beyond belief. If the hospital can show some need to "secure" the entire building, so be it. But it must provide storage at the entrance. And it must not be allowed to prohibit legal items in automobiles. I'm afraid Governor Leavitt's blatant ignoral of State law in the matter of concealed weapons is spreading all too rapidly. School boards prevent teachers from providing for self defense while on school grounds. The UofU currently prevents students and faculty from providing for self defense while on tax-payer funded property. And now the State hospital joins in. I urge you to speak out publicly on this matter and to introduce and push, at the earliest possible moment, legislation to force everyone from our Governor on down to abide by the laws of this State and respect the rights and privleges of her citizens. You must do so before every piece of government controlled property in this State is declared off-limits to legally carried weapons of self defense and our CCW law is rendered moot. We are a nation of laws, not of men, and the laws must be obeyed even by those who own phobias, bigotry, or political agenda make it unpleasant to do so. So you know, I have not yet chosen to obtain a State issued permit to carry a concealed weapon. But I am deeply troubled anytime I see elected officials and government employees flagrantly disregarding the same laws I, as common citizen, am expected to obey. I appreciate your attentention and response to this mattter. Sincerely Charles Hardy - ---Begin Tribune Article--- Wednesday, April 29, 1998 Hospital To Ban Guns Starting Friday BY JUDY FAHYS THE SALT LAKE TRIBUNE The state's largest mental institution -- the Utah State Hospital in Provo -- is about to become one of the few places in Utah where a concealed-weapons permit is not recognized. A gun ban is set to take effect Friday. Cameras are not permitted in the hospital. Nor are pocket knives or illegal drugs. And, although administrators have long carried out a policy barring firearms, they never have had the force of law behind them until now. But, even before it becomes effective, some gun-rights advocates contend the prohibition goes far beyond what state law allows. ``I don't think they have got the right to do that,'' said Sen. Mike Waddoups, a Taylorsville Republican and gun-rights advocate. ``If [weapons] are prohibited on the entire campus, they are going too far.'' Recent Tribune Coverage Olympics May Unload On Gun Laws in Utah, (3-15-98) Lawmakers Can't Hide From This Gun Fight, (1-11-98) Utah Legislative Action on Guns 1998 Waddoups sponsored the 1995 law that made concealed-weapons permits valid ``without restriction.'' An ``administrative rule'' implementing the ban is set to go into effect Friday, as long as the hospital doesn't receive any objections. It would apply to state employees and visitors, as well as the hospital's 340 patients. Hospital officials have had the authority to keep weapons from parts of the facility since 1996. Aware of the risks inherent in some state-operated facilities, legislators built a few exceptions into the concealed-weapons law to permit ``secure areas'' in courts, jails and mental hospitals. Airports were added in 1997. Yet, officials at the state hospital never undertook the process necessary to implement the law at their facility. On April 1, they published a new rule that will give the hospital's longstanding practices some legal teeth. Until now, the hospital has relied on its ``no weapons'' policy, which is declared to all on a sign at the facility's entrance. ``Probably all these years we were doing it by policy [rather than law] and, frankly, we always have felt protected under the policy,'' said Janina Chilton, spokeswoman for the state's Division of Mental Health. ``This [new rule] raises the bar.'' Dangerous weapons have been a problem at the hospital from time to time, according to Chilton. She recalled an incident in the early 1980s in which a hospital security officer was shot in the leg by a former patient who was being escorted off the grounds. In the early '90s, an employee was killed with a a knife a patient got from the kitchen. Most commonly, though, the hospital gets into hassles over the policy with law enforcement personnel who are directed to check their weapons in safe boxes outside patient units. And hospital staff sometimes bristle about being told they should not bring their concealed weapons to work. Chilton said some employees have complained about the policy, but she added, ``We don't even want them in the cars.'' The new rule would make it clear no weapons are allowed anywhere on the 325-acre campus. ``Weapons, contraband, illegal substances, firearms, such as, but not limited to, pistols, sawed-off rifles, revolvers, or any device that could be used as a weapon are prohibited on the campus of the Utah State Hospital,'' the new rule says. ``Law enforcement personnel may bring their weapons onto the campus. However, they must secure their weapon in a secure weapon storage area before entering a treatment unit.'' Peter Heinbecker, director of the state hospital's forensics unit, was surprised to learn that such a law was not already in place. ``We can't have people with guns on our unit,'' said the doctor, whose unit oversees many patients who have been referred to the hospital from the criminal justice system. Meanwhile, there is spotty enforcement of the current no-gun policy. A metal detector purchased for the entrance to the forensics ward has not been installed, and visitors sometimes enter the ward without a pat-down search, said Heinbecker. He called the campuswide gun ban ``a fantastic idea'' and pointed out many patients are free to wander the grounds where they might be able to get weapons that could be used against themselves or other people. ``I don't know why anyone needs to bring weapons onto the grounds,'' he said. Waddoups pointed out that a legal opinion issued earlier this year by the Legislature's General Counsel specifically said it is illegal for the University of Utah to ban weapons from its campus and facilities. It also said there was no legal basis for a Department of Human Resource Management rule that prohibited state employees from carrying firearms in state facilities, vehicles or while on state business. Waddoups agreed there is some justification for prohibiting certain people from having firearms -- ``particularly patients'' -- in certain parts of the state hospital. ``It has to be addressed rationally like anyplace else,'' he said. © Copyright 1998, The Salt Lake Tribune All material found on Utah OnLine is copyrighted The Salt Lake Tribune and associated news services. No material may be reproduced or reused without explicit permission from The Salt Lake Tribune. Contact The Salt Lake Tribune or Utah OnLine by clicking here. - -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these things I'm fairly certain 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it. "Those rights, then, which God and nature have established, and are therefore called natural rights, such as life and liberty, need not the aid of human laws to be more effectually invested in every man than they are; neither do they receive any additional strength when declared by the municipal laws to be inviolate. On the contrary, no human legislature has power to abridge or destroy them, unless the owner shall himself commit some act that amounts to a forfeiture." -- Sir William Blackstone - ----END FORWARDED MESSAGE---- - -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these things I'm fairly certain 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it. "To violate the spirit of the law, while pretending to respect the letter of it, is a fraud no less criminal in character than an open violation of the law would be; it is not less contrary to the intention of the legislator, and indicates only a more cunning and deliberate wickedness." The Law Of Nations Or The Principal Of Natural Law, Emer De Vettel, Book II, Chapter XVII, Section 291 - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:32:01 -0700 From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Scott Engen's comments Wednesday, April 29, 1998 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mandela No Moral Authority ### The column by Michael Nakoryakov (Tribune, April 12) flatters South Africa's Nelson Mandela as one of the world's foremost ``moral authorities,'' and lauds his 27 years in prison for his ``anti-apartheid convictions.'' Let's look at the unvarnished historic facts. Nelson Mandela was and is a devoted Marxist revolutionary. He didn't spend decades behind bars for speaking out against racial oppression, organizing a legitimate political party or a labor union, or publishing unflattering comments about the barbaric apartheid policies of South Africa. ### Nelson Mandela was convicted in a court of criminal law for helping to build and detonate a bomb that was used to murder a half-dozen police officers, and then remained a fugitive from justice for nearly two years. He is not the Thomas Jefferson of South Africa. He's South Africa's home-grown version of Timothy McVeigh. ### Through circumstance, fraud and the whims of political fate, terrorists, murderers and other scoundrels sometimes emerge as victors in the electoral process. Israel's Menachem Begin helped murder hundreds of British officers at the King David Hotel with a truck bomb in the late 1940s. Egypt's Anwar Sadat was part of a bloody coup attempt in the 1950s. Both of these admitted terrorists ironically later went on to win the Nobel Prize for Peace. Hitler was the lawfully elected chancellor of Germany before embarking on a career of worldwide genocide. Richard Nixon forever disgraced the office of the presidency by attempting to steal a free election from the American people. ### Perhaps The Tribune's Nakoryakov has a weakness for the old Soviet-state practice of rewriting history. His admiration of Mandela may stem from some political kinship. Regardless of the cause, as a convicted terrorist and murderer, Nelson Mandela has no ``moral authority.'' I believe people like Desmond Tutu, Rosa Parks and a little girl from Topeka named Brown have moral authority. Mandela forfeited any possible claim to any form of morality when he lit the fuse of that bloody bomb decades ago. ### SCOTT ENGEN ### Salt Lake City - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 22:44:41 -0600 From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Weapon Ban at Utah State Hospital Address for comments follows article. The next USSC Board meeting will be Monday May 4, at 6:30 PM at the Crossroads of the West offices, 7 N. Main Street, Kaysville. Meetings are open to all interested persons. > Wednesday, April 29, 1998 =20 >Hospital To Ban Guns Starting Friday =20 > BY JUDY FAHYS > THE SALT LAKE TRIBUNE > =20 > =20 > The state's largest mental institution -- the Utah State=20 > Hospital in Provo -- is about to become one of the few places= in=20 > Utah where a concealed-weapons permit is not recognized.=20 > A gun ban is set to take effect Friday.=20 > Cameras are not permitted in the hospital. Nor are pocket knives=20 > or illegal drugs. And, although administrators have long carried out=20 > a policy barring firearms, they never have had the force of law= =20 > behind them until now.=20 > But, even before it becomes effective, some gun-rights advocates=20 > contend the prohibition goes far beyond what state law allows.= =20 > ``I don't think they have got the right to do that,'' said Sen.=20 > Mike Waddoups, a Taylorsville Republican and gun-rights advocate.=20 > ``If [weapons] are prohibited on the entire campus, they are going=20 > too far.'' =20 > =20 > Waddoups sponsored the 1995 law that made concealed-weapons= =20 > permits valid ``without restriction.''=20 > An ``administrative rule'' implementing the ban is set to= go=20 > into effect Friday, as long as the hospital doesn't receive any= =20 > objections. It would apply to state employees and visitors, as well=20 > as the hospital's 340 patients.=20 > Hospital officials have had the authority to keep weapons from=20 > parts of the facility since 1996. Aware of the risks inherent= in=20 > some state-operated facilities, legislators built a few exceptions=20 > into the concealed-weapons law to permit ``secure areas'' in courts,=20 > jails and mental hospitals. Airports were added in 1997.=20 > Yet, officials at the state hospital never undertook the process=20 > necessary to implement the law at their facility. On April 1, they=20 > published a new rule that will give the hospital's longstanding= =20 > practices some legal teeth.=20 > Until now, the hospital has relied on its ``no weapons'' policy,=20 > which is declared to all on a sign at the facility's entrance.= =20 > ``Probably all these years we were doing it by policy [rather=20 > than law] and, frankly, we always have felt protected under the= =20 > policy,'' said Janina Chilton, spokeswoman for the state's Division=20 > of Mental Health. ``This [new rule] raises the bar.''=20 > Dangerous weapons have been a problem at the hospital from time=20 > to time, according to Chilton.=20 > She recalled an incident in the early 1980s in which a hospital=20 > security officer was shot in the leg by a former patient who= was=20 > being escorted off the grounds. In the early '90s, an employee was=20 > killed with a a knife a patient got from the kitchen.=20 > Most commonly, though, the hospital gets into hassles over the=20 > policy with law enforcement personnel who are directed to check= =20 > their weapons in safe boxes outside patient units. And hospital= =20 > staff sometimes bristle about being told they should not bring their=20 > concealed weapons to work.=20 > Chilton said some employees have complained about the policy,=20 > but she added, ``We don't even want them in the cars.''=20 > The new rule would make it clear no weapons are allowed anywhere=20 > on the 325-acre campus.=20 > ``Weapons, contraband, illegal substances, firearms, such as,=20 > but not limited to, pistols, sawed-off rifles, revolvers, or= any=20 > device that could be used as a weapon are prohibited on the campus=20 > of the Utah State Hospital,'' the new rule says. ``Law enforcement=20 > personnel may bring their weapons onto the campus. However,= they=20 > must secure their weapon in a secure weapon storage area before= =20 > entering a treatment unit.''=20 > Peter Heinbecker, director of the state hospital's= forensics=20 > unit, was surprised to learn that such a law was not already in= =20 > place.=20 > ``We can't have people with guns on our unit,'' said the doctor,=20 > whose unit oversees many patients who have been referred to the= =20 > hospital from the criminal justice system.=20 > Meanwhile, there is spotty enforcement of the current= no-gun=20 > policy. A metal detector purchased for the entrance to the forensics=20 > ward has not been installed, and visitors sometimes enter the ward=20 > without a pat-down search, said Heinbecker.=20 > He called the campuswide gun ban ``a fantastic idea'' and= =20 > pointed out many patients are free to wander the grounds where they=20 > might be able to get weapons that could be used against themselves=20 > or other people.=20 > ``I don't know why anyone needs to bring weapons onto the= =20 > grounds,'' he said.=20 > Waddoups pointed out that a legal opinion issued earlier this=20 > year by the Legislature's General Counsel specifically said it is=20 > illegal for the University of Utah to ban weapons from its campus=20 > and facilities.=20 > It also said there was no legal basis for a Department of Human=20 > Resource Management rule that prohibited state employees from= =20 > carrying firearms in state facilities, vehicles or while on state=20 > business.=20 > Waddoups agreed there is some justification for prohibiting= =20 > certain people from having firearms -- ``particularly patients'' --=20 > in certain parts of the state hospital.=20 > ``It has to be addressed rationally like anyplace else,''= he=20 > said.=20 > =20 > =20 > =A9 Copyright 1998, The Salt Lake Tribune > =20 > All material found on Utah OnLine is copyrighted The Salt Lake= =20 > Tribune and associated news services. No material may be reproduced=20 > or reused without explicit permission from The Salt Lake Tribune.=20 > > =20 > Contact The Salt Lake Tribune or Utah OnLine by clicking here. > > The address for comments is: Danette Faretta-Brady (is that name a coincidence?) Human Services Mental Health, State Hospital 1300 East Center Street PO Box 270 Provo, UT 84606 Phone: 801-344-4291 email: dfaretta@email.state.ut.us Deadline for comments is: 5PM, May 1, 1998 I've seen the administrative ruling, and while I'm not an attorney, it seems clear to me that it violates Utah Code, Sec. 76-8-311.1, particularly subsection (4) which requires provisions for safe storage of weapons in a secure facility, and section (1)(e)(ii) which provides that "a secure area may not include any area normally accessible to the public." And as Sen. Waddoups stated, it clearly violates the "without restriction" clause of the Utah Concealed Carry law. Sarah Thompson The following Board members have volunteered to have their contact info made public. Please feel free to contact them, but please do not abuse their open-door policy. =20 Doug Henrichsen, 771-3196(h), cathounds@aol.com Elwood Powell, 426-8274 or 583-2882 (h), 364-0412 (w), 73214.3115@compuserve.com Shirley Spain, 963-0784, agr@aros.net Bob Templeton, 544-9125 (w), 546-2275 (h) Sarah Thompson, 566-1067, righter@therighter.com (I prefer e-mail to phone calls when possible). Joe Venus, 571-2223 To subscribe to the USSC mail list, send a message to: USSC@therighter.com In the SUBJECT of the message put: SUBSCRIBE USSC - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 23:35:59 -0600 From: "S. Thompson" Subject: FW: Please act - NBC Longtime firearms activist and writer David Kopel of the Independence Institute in Colorado requested that I pass this along. I have not personally verified any of the information. Sarah BOYCOTT OF "LIRR INCIDENT" SPONSORS GAINING STEAM Judging by copies of letters to NBC received to date, the initial response is encouraging. But we need to spread the word and get more people to contact NBC and let them know you and your family will boycott any sponsors of "The Incident on Long Island" TV movie, set to air May 3 on NBC. You will recall that this Barbra Streisand production is little more than a promotional piece for anti-gun zealot Rep. Carolyn McCarthy (D-NY), who is up for re-election this year. The TV movie reportedly contains numerous mis-statements about guns and the Second Amendment, as well as vicious attacks on the NRA and politicians who voted to repeal the 1994 Clinton "assault weapon" ban. The movie exploits the tragic Long Island Railroad massacre, the ensuing trial of mass-murderer Colin Ferguson, and McCarthy's campaign for Congress to boost McCarthy and slam the NRA and gun rights. A campaign is under way to fight this. Many people have already contacted NBC and informed them that they will boycott all sponsors who advertise on the program, explaining that we will not stand for intentional distortions of fact and slander of the NRA, RKBA, and our political allies. A list of sponsors will be circulated immediately after the May 3 broadcast. Efforts to ascertain sponors in advance are still being made. Send your comments now to movies@nbc.com. and leave comments at their websites and landmail http://www.nbc.com/ (you can go to your local affiliate stations homepage by searching w/ zipcode from this page) NATIONAL BROADCASTING CO INC. Viewer Relations 30 Rockefeller Plaza New York, NY 10112-0002 Phone Number: (212) 664-4444 (ask for Viewer Relations, leave a recorded (likely) or live message) http://www.nbc4la.com/ (LA's KNBC channel 4; click on feedback) KNBC TV - Comments 3000 W Alameda Ave, Burbank, CA 91523 (818) 840-4444 (comments must be written) Please continue to spread the word, and do your part! - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:18:53 -0700 From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Teen Forum: Ethics, not guns, blamed for shootings (fwd) -Forwarded Received: from fs1.mainstream.net ([206.97.102.4]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:54:13 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id OAA15873; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:50:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:50:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma015663; Thu Apr 30 14:48:16 1998 Message-Id: <9804301857.0hm0@xpresso.seaslug.org> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: noban@xpresso.seaslug.org Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk From: noban@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Teen Forum: Ethics, not guns, blamed for shootings (fwd) X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list On Apr 30, Tom Cloyes wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] >From the mouths of babes! This is encouraging. Tom >Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 21:45:40 -0400 >From: E Pluribus Unum >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) >To: E Pluribus Unum Email Distribution Network >Subject: Teen Forum: Ethics, not guns, blamed for shootings > >Teen Forum: Ethics, not guns, blamed for shootings >Wednesday, April 29, 1998 >By Bill Steigerwald, Post-Gazette Staff Writer > >Guns don't kill children on the school playgrounds of Jonesboro or at >eighth grade dances in Edinboro, young people do. > >Or, in the case of the horror in Jonesboro, the killing is done by >gun-happy boys with no consciences and clueless parents who don't stress >responsibility. > >The above could be a bumper-sticker argument straight from National >Rifle Association headquarters. > >But it is also an accurate summation of what Keith Bocian, Melyssa >Jenkins, Tom Marvit, Aaron Reed, Jennifer Schaupp and James Ziegler >think when it comes to placing blame for America's continuing scourge of >gun-related violence. > >In their discussion of guns and how to control the damage they do at >last week's Teen Forum, the six high school students made it clear that, >as far as they are concerned, the Second Amendment still rules. For >despite what happened in Jonesboro, Ark., and the death toll elsewhere >from America's love affair with firearms, not one of them says they >would want the Constitution changed to outlaw guns. > >Let's get one thing straight. The six are not, through some quirk of >random selection, sons and daughters of wild game hunters or militia >members. Far from it. Mostly city kids, they've hardly had any >experience with shooting anything more lethal than a Super Soaker. > >Guns do not play an important part in their lives. Most of them don't >like guns and wouldn't use one to kill any living thing. The boys - >Keith, Tom, Aaron, James - say they could get their hands on a gun any >time they wanted from someone they know. But they don't see guns openly >displayed in their neighborhoods or schools. > >Only Tom, a sophomore at Taylor Allderdice, has seen a gun in school. > >Well, actually, he didn't see it himself but one of his friends saw it >when it fell out of a student's backpack. The student pointed it at a >substitute teacher, then threw it out the classroom window. He was a >student who was often in trouble, but he got off without punishment, Tom >says, because of "a technicality."" > >Aaron, a Brashear High School freshman from the Hill District, is the >only one who says he's ever come close to shooting a gun in hot anger. > >It happened after he got jumped by four unarmed kids in his >neighborhood. He went and got his 14-year-old friend's "heat," a >.38-caliber pistol. He was going to "do" them with the pistol, Aaron >says. He was going to make them show him respect. "I just wanted to >shoot them. It was my mentality at the time." But Aaron cooled off and >took the gun back to his friend. "I guess it's not in me to kill >someone," he says. > >Now, none of the six would ever think of using a gun to even a score. >"It doesn't even up the scales, it tips the balance," says Keith, a >Perry Hilltop 18-year-old. Anyway, Tom says, there are lots of other >ways to retaliate against your persecutors - from telling on them to >getting a friend in the library to put fines on their library books. > >Keith is the only one who lives in a house that has guns. His father's >pistol and his brother's hunting rifle hold no special appeal to him, >yet he sounds like a natural-born spokesman for the NRA and others who >uphold gun-owners' rights. > >"The problem's not with guns," he says confidently during a discussion >of the Jonesboro massacre. "The problem was with the kids' ethics." > >Tom is less reluctant to blame guns for violence rather than our >culture. He thinks it's the way Americans have been taught. He knows >that in Israel, as in Switzerland, everyone has pistols, rifles or even >machine guns in their house for purposes of national defense. But in >Israel, he says, you never hear about anyone using their guns for crime. > >Tom thinks everyone should take responsibility for his own actions, >including the Jonesboro boys, whom he says knew exactly what they were >doing and "should be prosecuted as adults." But Aaron thinks adults are >to blame. > >If those boys in Arkansas hadn't been introduced to guns so early by >their parents, he argues, the slaughter would never have happened. > >Meanwhile, Aaron's Hill District neighbor James, a junior at >Pittsburgh's High School for the Creative and Performing Arts, is the >only one of the six who expresses a view that gun-control advocates >could find encouraging. > >"I don't see why people have to have guns," he says. "Hunting and >everything, that's pretty fun. But I don't see why there couldn't be >some kind of renting process where you have the gun all day to go out >into the woods or whatever. I just don't see why you absolutely need to >have a gun in your house. For self-protection, that's OK, but..." > >"It's in the Constitution," argues Melyssa, who shows why she may become >a lawyer some day.. > >"Even if you do take away the guns," Keith says, "how do you enforce the >law? How do say, 'Well, cops can have guns, but nobody else can'?"" > >"Yeah," Melyssa says, "because the cops could take their guns home." > >But James thinks gun ownership should be more limited. For example, he >says, "You shouldn't have guns or ammunition in the house if you have >children." > >Melyssa doesn't buy it. > >"It's hard to single people with children out, or people with anything >out, whenever the Constitution says you have the right to bear arms. > >"It doesn't say you have the right to bear arms if you don't have >children or if you don't have a bad temper. And that's the Constitution. > >If we can't violate freedom of speech or freedom of the press, we >shouldn't violate that one either. > >"It's all about being responsible." >-- >****************************************************************** > E Pluribus Unum The Central Ohio Patriot Group > P.O. Box 791 Eventline/Voicemail: (614) 823-8499 > Grove City, OH 43123 > >Meetings: Monday Evenings, 7:30pm, Ryan's Steakhouse > 3635 W. Dublin-Granville Rd. (just East of Sawmill Rd.) > >http://www.infinet.com/~eplurib eplurib@infinet.com >****************************************************************** [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #51 **********************************