From: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com (utah-firearms-digest) To: utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: utah-firearms-digest V2 #60 Reply-To: utah-firearms-digest Sender: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk utah-firearms-digest Friday, May 22 1998 Volume 02 : Number 060 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:48:47 -0700 From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Memorial Day Thought (fwd) - ----------Forwarded Message---------- Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 19:44:19 -0400 From: Nancy Subject: Gun Owners Petition (fwd) -Forwarded Received: from fs1.mainstream.net ([206.97.102.4]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Thu, 21 May 1998 17:37:45 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id TAA15007; Thu, 21 May 1998 19:35:58 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 19:35:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma014791; Thu May 21 19:33:05 1998 Message-Id: <9805212246.0jhw@xpresso.seaslug.org> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: noban@xpresso.seaslug.org Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk From: noban@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Gun Owners Petition (fwd) X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list This may bear some discussion, but seems good so far..... On May 20, ShootStuff wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] I am a WAC member (#45795) and a citizen who is tired of seeing my rights eroded daily. A group of us after much discussion in the forums of www.guns.com came up with a petition that we want to present (with thousands of signatures) to the pro-gun groups. All we want is for them to work together in a unified front against the increasing onslaught of both national and international assaults on our basic and fundamental rights. Please review the petition and place a link on the WAC page to give the members the opportunity to decide if this is a cause they want to put their name on. The address is http://members.aol.com/FIGHTFORUS/GunownersPetition.html Also please send this message out to the email list. The names are only going to be used for this petition. No mailing lists or requests for anything. Just stand up and be counted. Thank you Dan Clark ShootStuff@aol.com [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 18:01:25 -0700 From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Re: Question for San Antonio listmembers (fwd) -Forwarded Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id KAA14348; Thu, 21 May 1998 10:46:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:46:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma013968; Thu May 21 10:45:43 1998 Message-Id: Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: pwatson@utdallas.edu Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk From: pwatson@utdallas.edu To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Question for San Antonio listmembers (fwd) X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 18:25:44 -0500 (CDT) From: "Sam A. Kersh" Reply-To: texas-gun-owners@Mailing-List.net To: texas-gun-owners@Mailing-List.net Subject: Re: Question for San Antonio listmembers Posted to texas-gun-owners by csmkersh@flash.net (Sam A. Kersh) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ DF uses ceramic bullets to cut down on richocets. But they are deadly and are an assasin's dream... ............................................................................ Delta Force bid for S.A. exercise gets shots down Express-News: News: Nation Delta Force bid for S.A. exercise gets shots down By Sig Christenson and Christopher Anderson Express-News Staff Writers First came the loud whirring of helicopter blades, then booming explosions followed by the crackle of small-arms fire. Dazed, confused and frightened, nearby residents in working-class homes awakened in the dead of night, tumbled from their beds, scrambled for shelter and called for help. This wasn't war-torn Bosnia, the terrorist-ravaged Middle East or the crime-plagued city of Washington, but another night of Army Special Operations training Delta Force-style -- this time in Houston, Charlotte, N.C., and Des Plaines, Ill. "We didn't have black-clad ninjas running through the city of Des Plaines," said Police Chief Bob Sturlini, whose community of 55,000 people borders Chicago. But by giving Army Special Operations troops the green light to use their cities for urban counterterrorist training, top municipal officials in Des Plaines, Charlotte and Houston had a bigger problem: a public relations black eye. In the past three years, the Special Operations Command has conducted such exercises in at least 21 U.S. cities, including Atlanta, Chicago, Dallas, Detroit, Los Angeles, Miami, New Orleans, Pittsburgh and Seattle. San Antonio was to be next in line for such exercises, but City Manager Alex Briseño, Police Chief Al Philippus and Mayor Howard Peak practically slammed the door Tuesday on proposed Delta Force training here. Peak said the crack outfit won't get the key to San Antonio unless it can ensure public safety. "They ought to go out and look for a set in Hollywood or something," the mayor said late Tuesday. "If they're looking for a place to play, that might be more suitable than a real, live city and all the things we've got to look out for." Said Philippus: "As far as I'm concerned, it's over. We're not willing to support them." The elite, deadly and super-secret Delta Force has spent the past several months quietly negotiating leases and meeting with police to map out nighttime mock air and ground assaults using live ammunition, explosive charges and low- flying helicopters over vacant West Side and East Side buildings. A self-described Delta Force team leader Tuesday would not say whether his unit asked to train here or even admit the unit exists. But a two-page memorandum issued to the City Council, dated April 14 and signed by Philippus and City Attorney Frank Garza, describes a meeting in which Delta Force members and municipal officials discussed a mock assault. The training exercises would involve about 100 Delta Force commandos being dropped onto the rooftops of buildings by hovering helicopters under the cover of darkness. They would use explosives to blow their way inside, then fire on targets with possibly deadly ceramic bullets. No date had been set for the exercises, which would have included St. Theresa's Academy and brushed homes on the Southeast Side. "The nuns still live back there, and they're very protective," said Councilwoman Debra Guerrero, whose district includes the academy. "It's totally surrounded by neighborhoods." Delta Force might not have gotten wind of public reaction had their "raids" been sanctioned by the city, but Peak, Philippus and Guerrero almost certainly would not have been as fortunate. The flash, bang and pop of commando training in the city left Charlotte-Mecklenburg Police Chief Dennis Nowicki and former Houston Police Chief Sam Nuchia with a bad case of klieg-light burn. Like their fellow residents, neither man even knew Delta Force was in town -- until they faced the harsh glare of TV minicams. "We had not informed the community," said Nuchia, now a state appeals court judge, "and then, of course, the news media frenzied on it." In Des Plaines, hundreds of residents frightened by low-flying helicopters and explosions, called police. The city of San Antonio memorandum, citing a lengthy story in the February 1997 edition of Soldier of Fortune magazine, said Delta Force confirmed that $100,000 in property damage resulted from an explosion in a warehouse district near New Orleans. In Miami, a bullet fired during a Delta Force raid went awry, ricocheting into the window of an all- night restaurant. Commandos in Charlotte flew helicopters at treetop level over a lower middle-class, predominantly African-American neighborhood near a warehouse district on the night of March 4, 1997, prompting one man to grab "his shotgun out of fear," Nowicki said. An old abandoned warehouse just northwest of downtown was the target. Nuchia said a Special Operations exercise startled Houstonians in the Ship Channel area, causing residents to call 911. Nuchia called the negative fallout from the mission "our responsibility and our failure," but Nowicki said Delta Force stumbled by putting its own needs ahead of his city. "I don't think that they failed in their mission, but they failed in helping us accomplish our mission," he said. "Our mission is to maintain order and enhance the quality of life and to deal with the fears in our community." >....................end cite........................ Sam A. Kersh CSM, USA (ret) NRA Life Member BRR9724W TSRA Life Member JPFO, LEAA 52662 Ducks Unlimited Operation Game Thief http://www.flash.net/~csmkersh/csmkersh.htm - -- For help with Majordomo commands, send a message to majordomo@mailing-list.net with the word help in the message body. - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 09:05:41 -0700 From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Some first hand info on the Springfield shooting -Forwarded Received: from fs1.mainstream.net ([206.97.102.4]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Fri, 22 May 1998 08:13:47 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id KAA13271; Fri, 22 May 1998 10:12:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 10:12:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma013082; Fri May 22 10:08:21 1998 Message-Id: Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: pwatson@utdallas.edu Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk From: pwatson@utdallas.edu To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Some first hand info on the Springfield shooting X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 01:38:32 -0600 From: avas0luk@hydrophilus.com Subject: IP: School Shooting, Thurston High School, Springfield Oregon For the sake of clarity and attention to detail, I have a wife here who's sister was present at this incident. Reuter's missed/glossed a few points: On May 21, 1998 5:10 PM EDT, Todd Murphy wrote: >SPRINGFIELD, Ore. (Reuters) - A heavily-armed 15-year-old boy opened >fire in a high school cafeteria Thursday, killing one person and >injuring at least 23 others... >The youth, who >had been expelled Wednesday for bringing a gun to school, stood >on a table in the Thurston High School cafeteria... He didn't stand on the table, he stood AT the table, where he had previously been sitting. No Rambo Image here, sorry. >When he ran out of ammunition he reached for one of several other >weapons but was tackled by students... He didn't run out of ammo before he was tackled. One of his tacklers was shot in the hand while tackling him. >who held him until police arrived, witnesses said. "Held" him is a little off. The boys BEAT THE LIVING TAR out of Kip. We are talking about a major pummeling from a couple of wrestlers. The kid holding him down for the beating reports that Kip was screaming for them to quit pounding him, but the 'holder' just told him to shut up. >One witness told reporters one of the >students who tackled the gunman was shot and wounded. How could this happen if he had run out ammo, as this article claims earlier. By the way, this kid that got shot while tackling Kip did not let the wound stop him from joining in on the pounding. A student, after assisting a fellow classmate with a gaping back wound, approached my sister in law in tears. She is now in hysterics. Kiplin Kinkle, fifteen, was voted "Most Likely to Start World War Three" two years in a row in the school's yearbook. He was known to take things too far, and hold grudges. - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 09:08:11 -0700 From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: CNN Poll on School Shooting in Oregon (fwd) -Forwarded Received: from fs1.mainstream.net ([206.97.102.4]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Thu, 21 May 1998 20:08:22 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id WAA28528; Thu, 21 May 1998 22:06:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 22:06:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma028040; Thu May 21 22:01:40 1998 Message-Id: <9805220127.0jix@xpresso.seaslug.org> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: noban@xpresso.seaslug.org Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk From: noban@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: CNN Poll on School Shooting in Oregon (fwd) X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list On May 21, David Wisniewski wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] http://www.cnn.com As of 6:40pm EST Who or what is most responsible for school violence? Kids 9% Parents 29% Schools 1% Media %12 Access to Guns 26% All of the Above 20% None of the Above 2% [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 09:20:27 -0700 From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: HCI STATEMENT - SHOOTING IN OREGON http://www.handguncontrol.org/press/reaction.htm For Immediate Release May 21, 1998 STATEMENT OF SARAH BRADY RE: SCHOOL SHOOTING IN OREGON (Washington, D.C.) "Today#s shooting at Thurston High School in Springfield, Oregon should bring every American to the realization that the tragedy of kids and guns will not go away # and is, in fact, escalating. "In early June, Representative Carolyn McCarthy will introduce comprehensive legislation, the Children Gun Violence Prevention Act of 1998, because it is time that Congress takes responsibility for preventing more Springfields and more Jonesboros. This legislation will hold parents responsible if they leave their guns accessible to kids, and stringently penalize those gun dealers and others who are selling firearms to juveniles. It will demand that the gun manufacturers finally develop and market a childproof gun, and extend the current ban on juvenile handgun possession to include semi-automatic assault rifles. The research dollars that the federal government, at the behest of the gun lobby, has not been spending on gun injuries and fatalities will be restored, and the Department of Education will help communities develop a comprehensive and objective curriculum about guns and gun violence for use in their schools. "No Member of Congress will be able to find a sensible or sane reason to refuse support to this legislation. This is about responsibility, safety and education. In 1998, our politicians must support legislation to keep guns out of the hands of our kids because Americans cannot stand to read about one more horrific child murderer. "There is much we do not yet know about Springfield, but one thing is clear. The #Southern gun culture# that was examined so closely after Jonesboro does not pertain to this small town in the Pacific Northwest. This shooting in Oregon demonstrates that there is nowhere in this nation, no matter how low its crime rates, that is immune from the problem of kids and guns. All it takes is one disturbed child with access to one gun for this kind of tragedy to happen." Information Related to the Springfield Shooting Oregon received a "D" in Handgun Control, Inc.#s annual Kids & Guns Report Card. We urge all concerned citizens to call their Representatives in Congress and urge them to co-sponsor The Children#s Gun-Violence Prevention Act of 1998, that will be introduced by Representative Carolyn McCarthy. The Capitol Hill switch board number is (202) 225-3121. Call today! Please click below for more background information about the problem of children and guns in the United States: #Representative Carolyn McCarthy to introduce legislation to protect our children. #Legislative Action that will protect our families and our communities. #Guns in our Nation#s Schools: In the past two years, over 6,000 students have been expelled for bringing firearms to school# More information about the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence#s child safety programs, please click here. # # # Handgun Control, Inc., chaired by Sarah Brady, is the nation#s largest citizens# gun control lobbying organization. Based in Washington, DC, HCI works to enact stronger federal, state and local gun control laws, but does not seek to ban handguns. Founded in 1974, HCI has more than 400,000 members nationwide and works with local groups around the country to enact and protect reasonable gun control laws. More information about HCI and its affiliated organization, the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence, can be found on our website at http://www.handguncontrol.org. - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 09:41:09 -0700 From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Freedom is not free -Forwarded Received: from fs1.mainstream.net ([206.97.102.4]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Fri, 22 May 1998 03:30:10 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id FAA22865; Fri, 22 May 1998 05:26:21 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 05:26:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma022605; Fri May 22 05:23:07 1998 Message-Id: Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: eschelon@eschelon.seanet.com Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk From: "E.J. Totty" To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Freedom is not free X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list To all, to noone in general, This is a memorium, that appeared in the the obit column, of The Herald, Everett, Washington State, the essence is in the message. I, as a general rule, don't usually peruse the obit column, but for whatever reason the forlorn look on that young Marine's face caught my attention. So young I thought, to die, so early in life. The look of him is for all the world like one of the daguerreotype photo's one sees of the Civil War reproductions of soldiers of the period. If what follows don't yank at your chain, then your mettle is tougher than mine. ET - --------------------------------------------------------- In memoriam to Ronald M. Hayes, October 16, 1947 - May 21, 1967. I watched the flag pass by one day, It fluttered in the breeze, A younge Marine saluted it, and then He stood at ease; I looked at him in uniform, so young, so tall, so proud, With hair cut square and eyes alert, He'd stand out in a crowd. I thought how many men like him had fallen through the years, How many had died on foreign soil? How many mother's tears? How many pilot's planes shot down? How many died at sea? How many fox holes were soldiers graves? No, freedom is not free. I heard the sound of taps one night, When everything was still, I listened to the bugler play And felt a sudden chill. I wondered just how many times That taps meant "Amen", When a flag draped a coffin Of a brother of a friend. I thought of all the children, Of the mothers and the wives, Of fathers, sons and husbands with interupted lives. I thought about a graveyard At the bottom of the sea, Of unmarked graves in Alington, No, freedom is not free. - --------------------------------------------------------------- Remember: Memorialize the fallen. - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 09:55:47 -0700 From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: GRNC NATIONWIDE ALERT: 5-21-98 -Forwarded Received: from mcfeely.concentric.net (mcfeely.concentric.net [207.155.184.83]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/04/23 5.10)) id VAA15302; Thu, 21 May 1998 21:47:58 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Errors-To: Received: from crc3.concentric.net (ts003d13.ral-nc.concentric.net [206.173.77.73]) by mcfeely.concentric.net (8.8.8) id VAA10267; Thu, 21 May 1998 21:46:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980521204546.0370de54@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: wa4gnw@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 20:45:46 -0400 To: "GRNC ALERT DISTRIBUTION" From: Jim Barnard Subject: GRNC NATIONWIDE ALERT: 5-21-98 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Grass Roots North Carolina/Forum for Firearms Education P.O. Box 401, Sherrills Ford, NC 28673 (704) 478-4121, http://www.grnc.org GRNC NATIONWIDE ALERT: 5-21-98 Irresponsible news coverage is contributing to gun deaths among children: STOP CNN FROM CREATING COPYCAT SCHOOL SHOOTINGS The shootings in Oregon are now creating fever-pitch news coverage on CNN and other television stations. The results will be the same as those for similar incidents in Pearl, Paducah, and Jonesboro: The continued death of children in schools. Describing what he called "copycatting," criminologist Thomas Blomberg was quoted in USA TODAY after the Jonesboro shootings: "'Right now there are kids out there taking this in. They're saying `man, those kids in Arkansas were 11 and 13 and they blew those people away and they were in camouflage, man.'" HIS PREDICTIONS HAVE COME TRUE AND WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO AS LONG AS THE MEDIA EXPLOITS JUVENILE VIOLENCE IN PURSUIT OF RATINGS. GRNC implores you to: 1. Contact CNN IMMEDIATELY at (404) 827-0234, http://www.cnn.com/feedback/ and tell them in no uncertain terms: Their media feeding frenzies after recent school tragedies are KILLING CHILDREN Non-stop coverage must cease immediately to avoid future tragedies. The media rightly maintains that gun owners must be responsible. But so too they must be responsible in their news coverage. 2. Contact local newspaper and television outlets with the same message. --- end --- - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 13:29:16 -0600 From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Reese/Civilian Disarmament Those who pull the gun ploy do so to avoid facing up to truth By Charley Reese Commentary Published in The Orlando Sentinel, May 19, 1998 Orange County Chairman Linda Chapin, who seems to think she was elected County Mother, has finally pulled the gun ploy. The gun ploy is a tactic politicians who are not doing the job they were elected to do often use to distract voters. Chapin's job is being the top administrator of Orange County government. Judging from the problems at the jail and from the results of all the referenda, she's not doing a good job. So she comes out with the gun ploy, professing to be outraged and concerned about the rest of us allegedly having disinterest in saving children's lives. And she plays the ploy according to the script. First she exaggerates the problem. Accidental firearm deaths are dead last, even counting adults, as a cause of accidental deaths in the United States. The big killers of children are automobile accidents and, especially in Florida, drowning. In 1993, of the 90,523 Americans who died from accidents, 1,521 died in firearms accidents, and that includes both adults (by far the majority) and children. By contrast, 3,800 people drowned; 13,000 died in falls; 7,300 died from poisoning; and 41,000 died in motor-vehicle accidents. Second she trashes the National Rifle Association, accusing it of not being interested in keeping guns out of the hands of children and criminals. That is pure ignorance, at best, or a big, fat fib, at worst. The National Rifle Association is the premier teacher of gun safety and has been teaching gun safety and promoting stiff penalties for criminal use of firearms since long before Chapin even was born. She includes 19-year-olds as ``children'' and lumps together three separate, unrelated categories of accidents, homicides and suicides. She resorts to falsehood to rap the National Rifle Association and its members, and ends up advocating mandatory trigger locks. Now that's a stupid sugges-tion for two reasons. One, it is unenforceable unless she plans to declare martial law and conduct a house-to-house search on a daily basis. Two, someone stupid or careless enough to leave a loaded gun within reach of children would be stupid or careless enough to remove the trigger lock. You can't solve human problems with laws regulating inanimate objects. Finally, by blaming an inanimate object for the pathological behavior of human beings she reveals herself as irrational and superstitious. Yes, Mrs. Chapin, just put on your witch-doctor suit, shake your rattles and murmur at this inanimate object, the gun, and suddenly, by magic, it will give everyone a high intelligence quotient, high morals, a sense of responsibility and a healthy mind. Guns no more cause crimes or suicides than bricks cause buildings. A constant can never be the cause of a variable. In America, the constants are private ownership and ready access to firearms. The variable is the crime rate. As a matter of fact, firearms are less available and less accessible today than they have been at any other time in American history. But what liberals are really trying to do with the gun ploy is avoid facing the truth. The violent and brutish society they complain about is precisely the society they created. Everything liberals wanted they got. They wanted sexual promiscuity, dope, disregard for the law, no censorship of pornography, no laws against sodomy or public profanity, abortion on demand (the single biggest killer of children), easy divorces, acceptance of homosexuality, civilian review boards to second-guess police, Miranda warnings and public defenders, a welfare system that paid women to have illegitimate children and a tax system that penalized marriage, work, savings and investments and subsidized non-work and immorality. And they got every darn bit of it. It's called reaping what you sow, and it has nothing to do with firearms. [Posted 05/18/98 8:05 PM EST] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ * NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. Liberty's Educational Advocacy Forum http://freedomlaw.com promotes "action that raises the cost of State violence for its perpetrators . . . lay(ing) the basis for institutional change." [Noam Chomsky] Dr. Tavel's Self Help Clinic and Sovereign Law Library http://drtavel.com/selfhelp.htm Not a high-tech law firm brochure, "because a lawyer is only as smart as you make him" [Max Katz] and "the Law . . . should be accessible to every man and at all times." [Franz Kafka] For Liberty in Our Lifetime, R.J. Tavel, J.D., managing partner, Tavel & Stewart, Public Interest Law Firm, Bringing you "a whole new boutique of wonderful First Amendment litigation." [J. Scalia] http://freedomlaw.com/T&S/ - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 16:09:56 -0700 From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Learning to take the blame (Fwd) -Forwarded Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id QAA21384; Fri, 22 May 1998 16:57:58 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 16:57:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma021041; Fri May 22 16:56:04 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980522102959.006b0d10@lava.net> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: bbaron@lava.net Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk From: Brian Baron To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Learning to take the blame (Fwd) X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list Here is a thoughtful and well written statement that goes to the heart of the violence problem. I believe the points the writer makes are well worth remembering and using. Brian Baron, Chair Hawaii Citizens' Rights PAC >From: SYTEK Robert >To: "'Brian Baron'" >Subject: Learning to take the blame >Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 14:51:47 -0400 >X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) > >Brian: >On CNN today they again blamed the rise in school shootings on the >availability of guns. It seems the media are willing to point the finger >everywhere but at themselves. > >My own Mother, who is neutral on gun issues, pointed out to me a study that >tracked children's behavior over a 10 or 15 year span. The study showed that >children who do not have violent tendencies and watch typical violent >television exhibit violent behavior and children who exhibit violent >tendencies and do not watch typical violent television do not exhibit >violent behavior. > >Remember when the movie the Exorcist came out in theaters? Late 1970's I >recall. Anyway, back then movie and television violence wasn't so common. I >recall during some of the more graphic scenes people actually getting >nauseous and leaving the theater! Nowadays children view movies with much >more graphic content and aren't affected. It seems our society in general >has become desensitized to graphic violence and the representations thereof. > >For this reason, it is even more important that the common citizen is able >to defend themselves. With children and adults desensitized to violent acts, >they are able to commit these acts without hesitation or little thought. >This makes the common citizen even more at peril and more in need of >defending their life. > >Instead of more gun control, we need to examine the quality of out >television and movie viewing. Should children be taught that violent acts >are the way to solve problems? This is the lesson that our media teaches >time and time again. But when it comes time to take blame for teaching this >violent behavior, their finger always finds somebody else to point at. > >I am unsure of the details (who, what, when) of this study about violent >behavior in children, so I will get more details when I call Mom this >weekend. > >Brian, you may pass this message on to others if you wish. I don't mean to >come off as so angry, but as a responsible gun owner I get tired of being >blamed for the ills of society. All I want to do is keep my family safe >until the police can arrive. > >Sincerely: >Robert Sytek >Technical Associate >Complete Business Solutions Inc. > > > - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 17:58:42 -0700 From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: _TV_Causes_Murder_ -Forwarded Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id SAA28620; Fri, 22 May 1998 18:36:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 18:36:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma028560; Fri May 22 18:34:10 1998 Message-Id: <9805222219.0jr2@xpresso.seaslug.org> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: noban@xpresso.seaslug.org Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk From: noban@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: _TV_Causes_Murder_ X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list As a bit of side ammo, there was a study done some years ago by a Dr. Centerwall (sp?). It's referenced in a book by Michael Medved, which if I caught the title right, is called, "Hollywood Versus America". Anyway the subject studied was the effect of TV on areas that didn't previously have TV. The study has been updated, and the results show among other things, that: 1. Academic studies decline, and 2. The Murder Rate _doubles_. Just a little something to stuff down the throats of the Media Apologists. - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #60 **********************************