From: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com (utah-firearms-digest) To: utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: utah-firearms-digest V2 #65 Reply-To: utah-firearms-digest Sender: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk utah-firearms-digest Friday, May 29 1998 Volume 02 : Number 065 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 13:42:21 -0700 From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: NRA Election Results -Forwarded Received: from fs1.mainstream.net ([206.97.102.4]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Thu, 28 May 1998 13:34:44 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id PAA10732; Thu, 28 May 1998 15:32:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 15:32:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma010462; Thu May 28 15:30:45 1998 Message-Id: Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: BludyRed@aol.com Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk From: BludyRed@aol.com To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: NRA Election Results X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list From the VA-RKBA list. I have been unable to verify Dennis Baron -------------------------------------------------------- Just in case you haven't seen it - here are the election results that I found on the web. Mack Elliott Elected for a three-year term ending in 2001: Mr Michael P Baker Ms Sue King Ms M Carol Bambury Mr Michael Lee Rep Bob Barr Mr John Milius Rep Bill Brewster Mr Jim Nicholson Mr David G. Coy Mr Oliver North Sen Larry Craig Mr Ted Nugent Mr William Dailey Mr Lance Olson Ms Sandra Froman Mr James Porter Ms Marion P Hammer Mr Harold Schroeder Mr Charlton Heston Mr Dwight Van Horn Ms Susan Howard Rep Harold Volkmer Mr Brian A Johnson Rep Don Young Mr David C Jones Elected for a one-year term ending in 1999: Mr Alfred Ockenfels Not elected: Mr Sanford Abrams Mr Michael Kindberg Mr Jerry Allen Mr Jeffery Knox Mr F E Bachhuber Mr John Krull Mr Michael Beko Mr Clarence Lovell Mr Ray Cahen Mr John Millay Mr James Church Mr Robley Moore Mr Allen Dapp Mr Larry Rankin Mr William Dominguez Mr Albert Ross Mr Howard Fezell Mr Al Rubega Mr Dan Fiora Mr Frank Sawberger Mr Richard Gardiner Mr Thomas Seefeldt Mr Arnold Gaunt Mr Robin Sharpless Mr Fred Griisser Mr Bill Steg'Kemper Mr Wesley Grogan Mr Bill Steigers Mr David Gross Mr Kim Stolfer Mr John Guest Mr John Thompson Mr Fred Gustafson Mr John Trentes Mr Don Henry Mr Franklin Volk Mr William Hunt Mr Glen Voorhees Mr Phillip Journey - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 16:56:11 -0700 From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Handgun control at it in California -Forwarded Received: from fs1.mainstream.net ([206.97.102.4]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Thu, 28 May 1998 16:45:32 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id SAA26478; Thu, 28 May 1998 18:43:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 18:43:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma026187; Thu May 28 18:40:59 1998 Message-Id: Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: pwatson@utdallas.edu Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk From: pwatson@utdallas.edu To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Handgun control at it in California X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 15:40:25 -0500 From: believer@telepath.com Subject: IP: Text: Handgun Control Inc. Letter to CA Gubernatorial Candidates [BARF BAG ALERT!] Source: US Newswire Text of Handgun Control Inc. Letter to Calif. Candidates U.S. Newswire 27 May 17:43 Text of Handgun Control Inc. Letter to California Gubernatorial Candidates To: City Desk, Political Writer Contact: Luis Tolley of Handgun Control Inc., 310-441-3722 or 310-998-9960 (pager) WASHINGTON, May 27 /U.S. Newswire/ -- The following letter was sent to each of the major California gubernatorial candidates today to challenge them to support a 5-point program of gun control for California. For more information contact Luis Tolley, western regional director for Handgun Control Inc. at 310-441-3722 or 310-998-9960 (pager). ------ May 27, 1998 Dear Lt. Gov. Davis, Rep. Harman, Mr. Checchi and Attorney General Lungren: As the California primary approaches, the electorate continues to be concerned about one of the most important issues facing the state -- the issue of gun violence and its impact on our children and our communities. Despite the decline in crime rates in major cities like Los Angeles and San Francisco, the specter of gun violence and gun accidents continues to haunt California. The recent school shooting in an idyllic Oregon community demonstrates that children's access to guns can create a tragedy at any time, in any place. And, despite the overwhelming support of most Californians for additional, common-sense restrictions on access and use of firearms, the well-financed gun lobby continues to wield power in the California legislature. Therefore, this letter issues you a challenge. Several measures have been brought before the legislature in the last two sessions in an attempt to bring gun violence under control. Some are still pending, some are yet to be introduced as legislation. Taken together, these measures would provide an enormous additional margin of safety for Californians. We are asking that you publicly commit you support to the following five measures, and that you pledge to do everything in your power to ensure their passage should you be elected governor. 1. Saturday Night Specials. We ask that you pledge your support and your signature to S.B. 1500, which is currently before the legislature. This measure would establish quality and safety standards for handguns -- currently the nation's only unregulated consumer product -- and prohibit the manufacture of unsafe, easily concealed Saturday Night Specials which are so attractive to juvenile gang members. Because so many of these guns are manufactured in southern California, passing this bill would increase the safety of every American, even those who live outside California. 2. Child Safety Locks. A.B. 1124, which was vetoed by Gov. Wilson last year, would have required gun dealers to equip every firearm they sell with a child-safety lock to prevent children from shooting themselves or other kids. As you know, several local jurisdictions have passed this type of bill, but it only takes one disturbed child and one unlocked firearm to repeat the tragedies of Springfield and Jonesboro. 3. Semiautomatic Assault Weapons. AB 23, which is currently before the legislature, would prohibit the sale of all semiautomatic assault weapons, including the "copycat" versions of presently banned guns that are marketed by manufacturers to Californians and which were used against children in the infamous Stockton schoolyard massacre. 4. Rapid-Fire Ammunition Magazines. S.B. 1339, which is currently before the legislature, would prohibit the manufacture or sale of large, rapid-fire ammunition magazines which hold more than 19 rounds, like that used in the Springfield shooting. No state, including California, permits hunting animals with more than 10 rounds; why are we permitting humans to be the targets of these killing machines? 5. Gun Manufacturer Responsibility. Offer incentives for gun manufacturers to develop and sell "personalized guns" which could only be used by the authorized owners. Also encourage manufacturers to add magazine disconnect safeties, which would ensure that children are not injured by a "hidden" bullet in the gun chamber, and load indicators, which would show how many bullets are in a weapon, to all new products. California led the nation in insisting on cleaner automobiles; you now have a chance to demonstrate the same leadership in protecting children from guns. Again, these five measures, taken together, will challenge you as governor to do everything possible to protect more Californians from an early death, or a life in a wheelchair like mine. We are providing copies of this challenge to the media to publicize both our challenge and your response, and look forward very much to hearing from you at our Western Regional Office, 310-441-3722. Sincerely, /s/ James S. Brady ------ Handgun Control Inc., chaired by Sarah Brady, is the nation's largest citizen's gun control lobbying organization. Based in Washington, D.C., HCI works to enact stronger federal, state and local gun control laws, but does not seek to ban handguns. Founded in 1974, HCI has more than 400,000 members nationwide and works with local groups around the country to enact and protect reasonable gun control laws. More information about HCL and its affiliated organization, the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence, can be found on the HCI Web site at: http://www.handguncontrol.org. -0- /U.S. Newswire 202-347-2770/ 05/27 17:43 Copyright 1998, U.S. Newswire - - ----------------------- NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. - - ----------------------- Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 15:55:48 -0500 From: believer@telepath.com Subject: IP: Response to HCI Letter to CA candidates Source: US Newswire State Officials Pledge to Protect Children from Gun Violence U.S. Newswire 28 May 16:26 State Officials Pledge to Protect Children from Gun Violence To: State Desk Contact: Luis Telley of Handgun Control Inc., 310-998-9960 LOS ANGELES, May 28 /U.S. Newswire/ -- Al Checchi, Rep. Jane Harman and Lt. Gov. Gray Davis today accepted a challenge from James Brady of Handgun Control Inc. and pledged support for comprehensive measures to protect children and our communities from gun violence. But Attorney General Dan Lungren did not respond to Brady's challenge. "Preventable gun violence claims too many of our kids," said Brady, who was shot during the assassination attempt on President Reagan. "We applaud Rep. Harman, Lt. Gov. Davis and Mr. Checchi for agreeing to protect children and our communities from gun violence and we wish Attorney General Lungren would show an equal commitment to stop gun violence. No child should end up in an early grave or in a wheelchair like mine because of gun violence that could have been prevented with responsible gun laws. "These are common sense measures to prevent gun violence," said Brady. "Why would anyone not favor trying to prevent children from shooting themselves or other kids by requiring child safety locks on guns and restricting semiautomatic assault weapons and Saturday night specials?" The five measures in Brady's challenge include: -- Banning unsafe, easily concealed Saturday night specials; -- Requiring child-safety locks to be sold with every gun; -- Strengthening the ban on semiautomatic assault weapons; -- Restricting rapid-fire ammunition magazines; -- Encouraging gun manufacturers to incorporate safety features on handguns. Last year, Gov. Wilson vetoed bills to ban Saturday night specials and require child-safety locks. Legislation to strengthen the ban on assault weapons, restrict rapid-fire ammunition magazines and encourage gun manufacturers to incorporate safety features on handguns are now pending in the legislature. ------ Handgun Control Inc., chaired by Sarah Brady, is the nation's largest citizens' gun control lobbying organization. Based in Washington, D.C., HCI works to enact stronger federal, state and local gun control laws, but does not seek to ban handguns. Founded in 1974, HCI has more than 400,000 members nationwide and works with local groups around the country to enact and protect reasonable gun control laws. More information about HCI and its affiliated organization, the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence, can be found on the website at http://www.handguncontrol.org. -0- /U.S. Newswire 202-347-2770/ 05/28 16:26 Copyright 1998, U.S. Newswire - - ----------------------- NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. - - ----------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 May 98 19:46:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Under the Gun 1/2 - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 23:43:52 -0400 From: Leroy Crenshaw To: liberty-and-justice@pobox.com Federal Document Clearing House, Inc. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to ABC News. This transcript may not be copied, resold or redistributed in any media. Under the Gun Gun Use in US Inner Cities and Suburbs May 26, 1998 (This is an unedited, uncorrected transcript.) TED KOPPEL, ABC NEWS(VO) October--Pearl, Mississippi, three dead. December--West Paducah, Kentucky, three dead. March--Jonesboro, Arkansas, five dead. April--Edinboro, Pennsylvania, one dead. May--Springfield, Oregon, four dead. Small towns in America are learning what many in the inner cities have known for some time--kids plus guns spell disaster. But is it that simple? Some surprising answers from the inner city. JIM ROBINSON They talk about going to do something about guns. It is not guns. It's the condition of the neighborhoods. TED KOPPEL (VO) Meanwhile, those in the gun industry feel equally misunderstood. STEVE SANETTI, FIREARMS MANUFACTURER Get out of the city. Get out into where the rest of America is, where the people at this show come from, and you will see that firearms are used well over 99 percent of the time for legitimate purposes. TED KOPPEL (VO) Tonight, one nation, two worlds living under the gun. ANNOUNCER From ABC News, this is Nightline. Reporting from Washington, Ted Koppel. TED KOPPEL What may be the most difficult aspect of dealing with the subject of guns in America is the fact that we tend to listen only to those who share our point of view to begin with. In fact, as soon as most of us begin reading a newspaper column or watching a television piece on a gun-related story, we know, or at least we think we know immediately just where that person is coming from. A lot of you will do that tonight anyway, but if you'll pardon the expression, hold your fire. Just for the record, there are clearly a lot of yahoos on both sides of this issue. But it's important enough, if only because so many people are dying and getting hurt, that it deserves a suspension of judgment. There may actually be some common ground that we can all agree on and one such area has to do with the question of perspective. Our friend, David Turecamo, who spends several months at a time both videotaping and reporting his own stories, David has been examining this story from a couple of vantage points and we'll be looking at his work both tonight and tomorrow. It may be stating the obvious, but guns play a totally different role in the life of a hunter or a sportsman from that of a person living in, say, a drug-infested neighborhood of Philadelphia. Go to any gun show in the country and you'll hear just that, which doesn't mean it isn't true. But neither is it the entire story. DAVID TURECAMO, REPORTER If you want to understand one part of the gun culture in this country, start here, Las Vegas, at the annual SHOT Show, that's short for Shooting, Hunting and Outdoor Trade Show. 1ST GUN SHOW PARTICIPANT This is the largest collection of capitalists in the shooting sports industry. This really is a combination trade show, hootenanny, alumni reunion. DAVID TURECAMO (VO) It's a $30 billion industry that's more than just guns and ammo. It's outfits and accessories and gadgets, 'cause guns to these people are not only a way of life, they're a state of mind. JOHN RISDALL, MAGNUM RESEARCH When they look in the front of that barrel, that's it, there isn't any doubt about what's going on there and nobody's confused in the room about who is who and what's what at that point in time and you solve a lot of social arguments instantly by just looking at one of these. I mean you want to be the city in America that has no guns in any of the houses in the city? DAVID TURECAMO (VO) Marva Gaskins probably would. She understands another part of the gun culture because she lived it, here, in North Philadelphia, in a neighborhood they call the badlands. (interviewing) They came up onto the porch? MARVA GASKINS Yeah, came up here. Want to see? Watch? DAVID TURECAMO They shot into the house? MARVA GASKINS Yeah, see. DAVID TURECAMO (VO) In Philadelphia, the rate of gun murders has been going up steadily while the national average has gone down. (interviewing) That is a gunshot? MARVA GASKINS Yes. DAVID TURECAMO (VO) Valerie Wall's daughter was shot to death on her front steps. VALERIE WALL It's kind of hard, you know, having your child for 22 years, talking to her earlier that day and not being able to see her no more, you know? It's hard for me to come outside and sit on my step because if I look down, you know, I'm looking at my child laying down there. [ Continued In Next Message... ] - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 May 98 19:46:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Under the Gun 2/2 [ ...Continued From Previous Message ] DAVID TURECAMO (VO) More than 300 people were killed by handguns in Philadelphia last year, most between the ages of 15 and 25. 1ST PHILADELPHIA RESIDENT I mean, you're not like solving nothing if you've got a gun and another person got a gun and they just want to like show it off. That's really all it is about around here, it's like showing off. 2ND PHILADELPHIA RESIDENT Recently up here at Broad and Erie a cop was sitting in his car writing out a report. A young guy went on a rampage shooting up the neighborhood up there and, you know, he shot the cop's tires out. So otherwise, see, they don't have, they don't even fear the cops. DAVID TURECAMO (VO) It's not just the hundreds that are killed every year, there were five in just one weekend last March, but it's the uncounted victims, the ones who are injured and maimed for life or left widowed and orphaned. NURSE I'd like to introduce you to Kadysha. DAVID TURECAMO (VO) It was in the emergency room at Children's Hospital that I met a child named Kadysha. At 16 years old, she'd been shot in the stomach by her boyfriend. KADEHSA I got shot on January 27th. I lost all my short intestines. I start school next week for like a half a day. I don't really want to go because I don't know how people are going to think of me, how people going to look at me and stuff. I can't hold much in my stomach. I can't drink a lot of fluid. Like regular people drink or eat, I can't. I think I came a long way and I feel much better. But I wish I could be back like I was. DAVID TURECAMO (VO) But this town's got a mayor who just won't give up. MAYOR ED RENDELL If I was in a boat and it was sinking and all I had was a little bucket I'd be, and it was an ocean liner, I'd be bailing out with that little bucket until the water came over my eyebrows. DAVID TURECAMO (VO) Ed Rendell decided he'd had enough and he was going to do something about it. Now, this is a guy who everybody agrees brought the city back from the brink of financial collapse. If he could fix the city's money problems, he was ready to take on something even bigger. 1ST WTXF-TV REPORTER The mayor is putting together the elements for a federal lawsuit against gun makers. DAVID TURECAMO (VO) It was last July when the local Fox station broke the story. 2ND WTXF-TV REPORTER Now sources say the mayor is planning something dramatic to deal with gun violence and is setting his sights on a big target--the gun manufacturers. DAVID TURECAMO (VO) Several major lawsuits against the gun industry have already failed. But Rendell's would follow the pattern of the tobacco case, claiming the industry has created a public nuisance by producing millions of weapons which they know are going into the hands of criminals. David Kairys drafted the complaint. DAVID KAIRYS It's a question of whether they are responsible in damages for the direct harm, the harm they know they do to the cities, and that can start with the 911 call or cleaning blood from the streets and it could extend to the extent of hospital costs or taking care of an orphaned child. DAVID TURECAMO (VO) So Ed Rendell planned to sue the gun manufacturers in the city where the second amendment, which guarantees citizens the right to bear arms, the city in which that guarantee was written. But by January, six months after the story broke, they were still deliberating. MAYOR ED RENDELL Right now only, no one has tapped me on the shoulder and said we'll join you and we'll absorb part of the costs. And I would have to spend to litigate this case millions of dollars of the taxpayers' money here in Philadelphia and I want to make sure that at least we have a chance. DAVID TURECAMO (VO) So this is really a story about two Americas. One is urban, where guns are about survival. One is suburban, where guns are about sport. One is white, the other is black. What I'd like to show you is the journey I've taken through both and it all begins on the streets where kids wear T-shirts in memory of the dead. (interviewing) Who was Kevin? 3RD PHILADELPHIA RESIDENT My dad. (Commercial Break) JIM ROBINSON Now, see this corner right here? Somebody gets shot here at night, at this corner right here. All they be doing there is shooting every night. It's one of the biggest drug corners there was. You can get anything you want back here. This here is shooters' alley. DAVID TURECAMO (VO) Jim Robertson and Patrick Peters are crisis counselors with an organization called the Philadelphia Anti-Drug/Anti-Violence Network. More to the point, they grew up on these streets and gave me a tour of their city. 1ST MALE ON THE STREET A .357 is the best handgun you can have out here, man. It's a big boy, it's a revolver and you gotta go for that hard s___ [message ended here] - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 11:27:49 -0700 From: DAVID SAGERS Subject: Forward -Forwarded Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id BAA18465; Thu, 21 May 1998 01:03:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 01:03:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma018372; Thu May 21 01:03:21 1998 Message-Id: <199805210233.TAA17128@proxy4.ba.best.com> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: edgar.suter@dipr.org Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk From: Edgar Suter To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Forward X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list Subject: ALERT...ALERT...ALERT...ALERT Path: lobby01.news.aol.com!newstf02.news.aol.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-peer.g ip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.idt.net!netnews.com!newsfeed.concentric.ne t!global-news-master From: Bang Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns Date: 19 May 1998 19:25:26 EDT Organization: NEISIS! http://www.neisis.org/index.shtml Lines: 49 Message-ID: <356214F0.2545@neisis.org> Reply-To: bang@neisis.org NNTP-Posting-Host: ts004d47.chi-il.concentric.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) Bang Says: These antis ain't too bright. Read the press release below, then make sure you call the referenced woman and order the FREE speakers' kit. Just tell them you are a doctor or a preacher or something that makes you sound like a typical pablum slurper. Bang thinks it's a good idea for us to take advantage of some of the Joyce Foundation's money? Don't you??? Also, make sure you send a note to the e-mail address that is also listed. If they're gonna be stupid enough to advertize, we may as well give'em what they ask for!!!!!! Firearm Injury Prevention Speakers Kit Available 5/19/98 For Immediate Release: May 19, 1998 Contact Information: Lori Lovett American Academy of Pediatrics 141 Northwest Point Boulevard Elk Grove Village, Illinois 60007 Phone: 800-433-9016 Fax: 847-228-5097 Injury and death from firearms have become a public health problem for the nation's children. As part of its response, the American Academy of Pediatrics has prepared a speaker's kit, titled "Preventing Firearm Injury: Protecting Children." The kit is for pediatricians and other health care providers interested in presenting firearms injury prevention information to the public or to colleagues. It was developed with funds from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, the Joyce Foundation, the John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation and the AAP Friends of Children Corporate Fund. The kit includes slides, a narrative, tips for organizing presentations, tips for dealing with challenging issues or opinions, a suggested reading list and more. The kit is free of charge and can be obtained by calling Lori Lovett at 800-433-9016, ext. 6779 or by e-mail at llovett@aap.org. Source: Join Together Online - -- "...I don't believe gun owners have rights." (Sarah Brady, Chairman, Handgun Control, Incorporated, from the Hearst Newspapers Special Report, "Handguns in America" October 1997) - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 14:56:47 -0600 From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: Re: Get an early start on summer vacation! -Forwarded On Wed, 27 May 1998, "S. Thompson" posted: > The schools have failed utterly in providing teachers who are even >proficient in English at a low high school level, much less any "esoteric" >knowledge, such as math, science, history, or arts. That needs to be the >first goal. If public school teachers were as proficient with firearms as >they are at writing sentences in English, I'd be terrified to live near a >school, much less send my child to one! While it may be theoretically >possible to train teachers to use firearms, I seriously doubt that it's >actually possible, at least in our current society. Actually, my first goal is to provide real choice to parents in where and how their children are educated. I was merely stating that there is no fundamental violation of civil rights to require firearm proficiency as part of a job. > Secondly, requiring proficiency in teaching skills and knowledge is a >reasonable requirement that violates no one's civil liberties. However, I >can find no definition of teacher that includes the duties of armed guard. >It is, of course, possible to change the definition and requirements for >teachers, but such a change can't be done abruptly. Of course it can. Whether or not it would be prudent to do so is another story. My boss can change my job description at will--or even eliminate my job altogether. I am free to work elsewhere if I don't like my employer's conditions of employement. With the exception that certain forms of discrimination are not allowed when the employer is "we the people" via our elected government, nothing else changes. > Also, as self-defense advocates we must be careful to be consistent. >Many people here have raised the issue of bans on knives being an >infringement of the religious rights of Sikhs, who are required to carry a >specific type of knife. If we are going to insist that the rights of Sikhs >be respected, should we not be equally vigilant to defend the rights of >Quakers and Buddhists whose religious beliefs generally preclude carrying >firearms? I would not suggest anyone be required to carry a gun nor to enter into nor remain in any employment that required them to do so. But to set job requirments to which some might object on religous grounds is not a violation of civil liberties. Those people should simply not choose that line of work. >If someone is a good teacher, I can see no reason to prevent him >from teaching whether he's a Sikh who wishes to carry a knife to school or >a Quaker who refuses to carry a firearm. And what do we do about teachers >who have physical handicaps that prevent them from handling a firearm >safely? I agree completely. But your arguments are pragmatic, not constitutional in nature. I'm not saying we should require all teachers to carry guns. I'm saying we could require them do so if we wanted. >Should a teacher who has an episode of serious depression that >requires involuntary hospitalization lose her job forever, even if she's >successfully treated? No one should lose their RKBA except while actually incarcerated or hospitalized. If someone has not been rehabilited enough to be trusted with a gun, we should have imposed a longer sentence because the fact is once they are on the street, if they want a gun, they can get one. > I don't like _ex post facto_ laws applied to gun owners and they're not >any better when applied to teachers. Agreed. Eliminate all ex-post-facto laws. > I don't know of any rational reason for refusing to learn CPR for kids, How about an irrational fear contact with bodily fluids? As a physician you know full well just how irrational that fear is--especially with a little training and some basic equipment at hand. 90% of those who would object to carrying a gun would do so over a similar irrational fear, I suspect. >And for some teachers, particularly those who >work with emotionally disturbed, or "at-risk" youth, carrying a firearm and >having all the students _know_ you carry it, could present a very real >danger of students ganging up on a teacher to get the gun. A very thoughtful argument. Once again a pragmatic one rather than a constitutional one. > I agree. We'd lose too many good teachers by requiring it. But I have no >problem with encouraging teachers to carry, and/or rewarding those who do. >(I suspect we're in far more agreement on this issue than it might appear...) Agreed. >absolute requirement. But we don't have that society today, and we're not >going to create it overnight. It's a worthy goal for people in all walks >of life. I just don't see any reason to single out teachers for such a >requirement. Why not bus drivers, doctors, bank tellers, or even postal >workers? Actually, bus drivers would another great area to encourage CCW at least so long as busses are run by the government. Any government employee who is generally entrusted with the safety of the public and is in a position to be a target for attack could, IMO, logically be required to CCW as part of their job. As a pragmatic matter I would not be in favor of requiring it. I would, however, never prohibit them from doing so and might even favor openly encouraging them. > And while I'm not accusing you of pettiness, I think some people in the >"gun rights community" who suggest such things may be being petty. >Teachers and their unions/organizations have long been among our most >potent and vocal opponents and in some of the suggestions I've seen to >"force" teachers to carry guns I've detected a vengefulness that I find >inappropriate, unbecoming, and potentially counterproductive. Not at all. I don't want to punish anyone. I'm thinking entirely of the safety of school children and how to improve that. Private schools who can set their own rules for both teachers and students would be the best thing. Allowing or encouraging teachers to become proficient in security and defense (armed as well as unarmed) is another. > I know that you reject force as a tool for social change and I suspect >you'd agree that educating people regarding the benefits of firearms >ownership is far preferable to passing unenforceable, _ex post facto_ laws >and regulations. I agree completely. But I do not view a change in job descriptions as ex-post-facto laws. When horse drawn wagons gave way to modern trucks, fire-fighters had to learn to drive those trucks. Tpying teachers have had to learn to teach "keyboarding" on computers. Teachers now have to operate video players rather than film projectors. School secretaries, counselors, and teachers alike have had to overcome fears and learn to use computers as a daily part of their routine. No one screamed ex-post-facto when the 60 year old teacher was required to begin submitting his grade reports via computer rather than the old paper forms. Once again, I agree with you on the pragmatic level. I simply maintain there would be no violation of rihgts to change job descriptions. - -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these things I'm fairly certain 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it. "It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error." -- Justice Robert H. Jackson - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 15:57:49 -0600 From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Police and gun safety >Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 09:12:57 -0700 >From: Howard Last >Organization: Howard Last, P.E. >X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win16; U) >Subject: Police and gun safety > >One way to increase gun safety is to take them away from the chiefs of police and=20 >police commissioners. I doubt if most of them know which end of the gun the bullet=20 >comes out of. > >Howard Last >[home page] >[Image] > > Top News Wis. Police Chief Kept Gun in Oven > > Sports MADISON, Wis. (AP) -- The police chief forgot he > had a gun in the oven. Then he decided to roast > Lotteries some turkey. > > International ``Shortly thereafter -- BOOM!'' police spokeswoman > Jeana Kerr said Wednesday. > National > The outcome for amateur chef and fulltime Chief > Washington Richard Williams was a voluntary one-day, unpaid > suspension for violating his department's firearms > Business policy. > > Wall Street Williams said the oven is one of the odd hiding > places at home where he puts his service revolver > Entertainment to reduce the risk of a burglar taking it. > > Health/Science On Sunday, he forgot he placed it in the oven the > day before. > Regional > After putting some turkey in the oven to roast at > 350 degrees, he laid down while waiting for it to > cook. > > That's when the gun went off, firing a round > through the gas stove and into a hallway banister. > > Williams and his Rottweiler, Chauncey, were home > alone. Neither was injured. > > ``I spent the next five or six hours thinking about > all the things that could've happened,'' Williams > said. > > After the holiday weekend, he sent Mayor Sue Bauman > a computer e-mail suggesting for the one-day > suspension for violating the firearms safety > policy, which demands officers be careful with > their weapons. > > =03AP-NY-05-27-98 2227EDT > > Copyright =A9 Associated Press. All rights reserved. > This material may not be published, broadcast, > rewritten, or redistributed. > > Home | Top of Page > >05/27 > - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 19:08:11 -0600 From: "S. Thompson" Subject: The Salt Lake Tribune -- Opinion http://www.sltrib.com/05291998/opinion/opinion.htm > Friday, May > 29, 1998 > > Olympic Gun Ban Is No-Brainer > At his monthly news conference Wednesday, Gov. Mike > Leavitt said that his public safety director, Craig > Dearden, had spoken ``persuasively'' last week about > banning firearms from the 2002 Winter Olympics in Utah. > Persuasively? The wonder is that there is any persuasion > necessary. ] > The prohibition of firearms from Olympic venues, > whether the person has a concealed-weapons permit or not, > is a no-brainer. Dearden made the case for such a ban to a > legislative interim committee last week, and even the Today's > Legislature's most vocal gun-rights advocate, Sen. Michael Headlines: > Waddoups, seemed to agree. > The dilemma is whether the state's > concealed-weapon-permit law, enacted in 1995 and subject to Reacting to > much deserved criticism ever since, makes it clear that Pakistan Tests > guns should be banned at the 2002 Winter Games venues. Sen. > Waddoups opined that the current law, which bans weapons in > ``secure'' areas, is sufficient, since Olympic venues, with > their airport-style metal detectors, would qualify as > secure areas. > That's one interpretation. But there has been so much > confusion over Utah's liberalized law that, as Dearden > argued, it makes sense for the Legislature to clarify that > Olympic venues are defined as ``secure facilities'' before > 2002 arrives and some overzealous permit holder seeks to > take a weapon into the opening ceremonies. > There must not be any doubt among the 20,000 or so > concealed-weapon permit holders in Utah that they cannot > attend an Olympic event with a firearm in tow. Any incident > at a Games checkpoint involving a firearm would prompt > legitimate security concerns, not to mention the resultant > embarrassment that it would bring to Utahns and their gun > culture. > Utahns attending the Games ought to be aware of the > security level at each venue. Nobody gets in without > waiting in line to proceed through a metal detector. > Obviously, anybody selfish enough to try to bring a > concealed weapon into a venue is going to be detained, > which would cause delays in moving spectators through the > checkpoint and, at more popular venues, could create a > crowd-control problem. > While Sen. Waddoups seems to understand that there is > no place for firearms at an Olympic venue, his notion that > Olympic security officers should provide a place for permit > holders to check their guns at the door is absurd. What > else is the Olympics supposed to provide, pet care for > spectators who want to check their dogs at the door? Utah > permit holders planning to attend the Olympics should just > do the obvious: leave their guns at home. > Of course, what seems obvious to most Utahns -- that > concealed weapons should not be allowed in schools or > churches or the state hospital -- is evidently not obvious > to gun-rights advocates. That's why Dearden spoke > ``persuasively'' when he made the case for clarifying > Utah's concealed-weapons law to make sure everyone knows > that guns and the Olympics don't mix. > > > ) Copyright 1998, The Salt Lake Tribune > All material found on Utah OnLine is copyrighted The Salt > Lake Tribune and associated news services. No material may > be reproduced or reused without explicit permission from > The Salt Lake Tribune. It IS a no-brainer, and the Tribune, as usual, is brain dead. A "secure facility" must be _completely_ sealed with metal detectors at each entrance. This is possible at an indoor venue, but certainly not at an outdoor one - at least not without huge expenditures of manpower and funds. A "secure facility" MUST provide safe storage for those who are legally carrying weapons, and accept liability for such storage. And perhaps most interesting, a "secure facility" by definition is someplace not open to the general public. That would seem to exclude the Olympics. Sarah - - ------------------------------ End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #65 **********************************