From: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com (utah-firearms-digest) To: utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: utah-firearms-digest V2 #77 Reply-To: utah-firearms-digest Sender: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk utah-firearms-digest Thursday, June 25 1998 Volume 02 : Number 077 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 08:23:56 -0600 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: Sarah oh Sarah Sweet Sarah!!! Received: from wvc ([204.246.130.34]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 03:37:37 -0600 Received: from legacy.lgcy.com by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id DAA28082; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 03:27:12 -0600 Received: from [209.180.83.1] by legacy.derail.org (NTList 3.02.13) id ta687225; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 01:46:41 -0600 Received: from [209.180.82.151] by mail.lgcy.com (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id qa550046 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:56:39 -0600 Message-ID: <358F51ED.82F063D6@lgcy.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:57:49 -0600 From: Joe Reply-To: legal@lgcy.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) To: discussion@derail.org Subject: Sarah oh Sarah Sweet Sarah!!! X-Info: Evaluation version at legacy.lgcy.com X-ListMember: dsagers@ci.west-valley.ut.us [discussion@derail.org] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline This is not new, but she said, and I quote: "Our task of creating a socialist America can only succeed when those who would resist us have been totally disarmed." Sarah Brady, Chair, Handgun Control, Inc. A SOCIALIST AMERICA ???---------Did I read that right? Yes I did, but the alarming thing is that there are those in this valley that would have socialism. They actually think that life under the socialist system is just great, dandy and wonderful. I have been to socialist countries before and I have seen that way of life. Let me tell you that it was not the way I want to live. It has once been said that COMMUNISM is SOCIALISM in a hurry. What do you think light rail is? Oh, isn't that a little bit socialistic folks? It is really amazing that there are those in politics that pledged that light rail would be a thing of the past if they won their much coveted post. When they finally won, they turned around, broke their promises, and embraced that vehicle that is a reality in the most socialist cities of the world. I give up, may these people and their supporters rot in their filth. It is a fact that a lot of the former Soviet countries are more free than this country. It is a fact that our education in America has fallen from # 1 to about # 35. Are we proud of this? The State of Utah has the highest rate of child molestation in the U.S.A. today. A large percentage of the people at the State Prison System are there for sex crimes. A great man once said " By their fruits, Ye shall know them." Think about it! ...........................................................................= ...........Joe http://www.jeffry.com/links.htm - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:55:18 -0600 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: www.abcnews.com poll Received: from wvc ([204.246.130.34]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:15:07 -0600 Received: from listbox.com by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA28300; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:04:45 -0600 Received: (qmail 3773 invoked by uid 516); 23 Jun 1998 16:10:26 -0000 Delivered-To: rkba-co@majordomo.pobox.com Received: (qmail 2948 invoked from network); 23 Jun 1998 16:09:17 -0000 Received: from mail13.digital.com (192.208.46.30) by majordomo.pobox.com with SMTP; 23 Jun 1998 16:09:16 -0000 Received: from sbuamazko2ae.zko.dec.com (sbuamazko2ae.zko.dec.com [16.29.160.92]) by mail13.digital.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/WV1.0f) with ESMTP id MAA06094 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 12:09:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by SBUAMAZKO2AE with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 12:09:17 -0400 Message-ID: <19789B47B8BAD111BC110000F8BCCCCF438D70@SCSWEXC1> From: Roger Oakey To: rkba-co submit Subject: www.abcnews.com poll Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 12:09:18 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Sender: owner-rkba-co.new@majordomo.pobox.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rkba-co@majordomo.pobox.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Posted to rkba-co by Roger Oakey - ----------------------- I'm really starting to think "Why bother?" with these polls. ABC news seems to have dropped any semblance of objectivity, right down to the phrasing of their question. Note that the yes vote is phrased in a direct manner whereas they split the no vote between two no answers (to reduce the % for either one) and at the same time put in some biting sarcasm just for spite. Josef Goebbels would be proud of today's media; he was a rank amateur by comparison. Roger ABC news' question today: =20 Would you support a ban on certain classes of guns? Yes. Guns DO kill people. No. I'm too big a fan of the Second Amendment. Maybe, if a gun were held to my head. For Help with Majordomo Commands, please send a message to: Majordomo@majordomo.pobox.com with the word Help in the body of the message - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:21:11 -0600 From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: Primary Elections I'm sure most everyone on this list has already done so, but if not, get out and vote today. I stopped by the polling place about 10:00 am and it was, and had been according to the election judges, a complete ghosttown. (I voted with ballot number 0011 in my precint and I've got a feeling they are numbered sequencally.) - -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these things I'm fairly certain 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it. "To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them..." -- Richard Henry Lee writing in "Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic", 1787-1788 - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 14:20:38 -0600 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: pa-rkba-digest V1 #1060 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D > - Felons have been prohibited from buying guns for a long time > (GCA 68) >=20 > - Dept. of Justice(DOJ), Office of Justice Programs(OJP), > Marianne W. Zawitz, "Guns Used in Crime", Bureau of Justice > Statistics(BJS) Selected Findings Number 5, July 1995, NCJ-148201. > This report noted that; > + Over 40 Million handguns have been produced in the > US since 1973 >=20 > + Most guns are NOT used to commit crime. >=20 > + Most crime is NOT committed with guns. >=20 > + Most gun crime IS committed with handguns. >=20 > + During 1993 there were 4.4 million murders, rapes, > robberies, and aggravated assaults in the US. More > than 1/4 of these violent crimes involved the use > of a > gun. (Therefore, a little less than 3/4 were > committed > WITHOUT the use of a gun.) >=20 >=20 >=20 > - DOJ, OJP, BJS, "Survey of State Prison Inmates", March 1993, > NCJ-136949. > + 73 percent of inmates who had ever possessed a > handgun DID NOT purchase it from a licensed dealer. > - US General Accounting Office, Report to the Committee on the > Judiciary, US Senate and House of Rep., "Gun Control: Implementation > of > the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act", January 1996, GAO > GGD-96-22. >=20 > + During the first year of "Brady" (Feb 28 '94 - Feb 28 > '95) there were 18570 applications for > handguns denied in the jurisdictions sampled. The reasons for denial are as follows; > Category/Reason Number % >=20 > Criminal History > Felony 8299 > 44.7 > Misdemeanor 452 2.4 > Other 292 > 1.6 >=20 > Other Brady Categories > Fugitives 160 > 0.9 > Drug Use 357 > 1.9 > Mental 38 > 0.2 > Dishonorable Discharge 49 0.3 > Illegal Alien 149 > 0.8 > Renounced Citizenship 0 0 >=20 > 1994 Crime Act 145 > 0.8 >=20 > Traffic Offenses 1413 > 7.6 >=20 > Administrative > Brady form sent to wrong 7012 37.8 > agency =20 > Incomplete/Inaccurate form 138 0.8 > Violation of state law 33 > 0.2 > Other 33 > 0.2 >=20 > + The GAO did NOT try to determine if all the denials > were valid; they just reported the numbers > from the sampled jurisdictions. > + GAO also stated "Policymakers recognize that even a > perfect felon identification system may not keep felons > from obtaining firearms and that Brady may not directly > result in measurable reductions of gun-related crime." - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:41:02 -0600 From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: [Waco:TROE Tonight!] Maybe of some interest... - ----BEGIN FORWARDED MESSGE---- XXX XXXX called me to say that "Waco: The Rules of Engagement" will be on "Frontline" on Ch. 7 at 8:00 PM tonight. - ----END FORWARDED MESSAGE---- - -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these things I'm fairly certain 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it. "No man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against the tyranny in government. -- Thomas Jefferson, June 1776 - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 17:00:15 -0600 From: Will Thompson Subject: Re: [Waco:TROE Tonight!] Charles Hardy wrote: > > Maybe of some interest... > > ----BEGIN FORWARDED MESSGE---- > > XXX XXXX called me to say that "Waco: The Rules of Engagement" will be > on "Frontline" on Ch. 7 at 8:00 PM tonight. > > ----END FORWARDED MESSAGE---- > > -- > > Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on > | these things I'm fairly certain > 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it. > > "No man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for > the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last > resort, to protect themselves against the tyranny in government. -- > Thomas Jefferson, June 1776 > After looking at PBS/Frontline, my bet is that it's this one that will be on The home videocassette ($19.95 plus shipping and handling) of FRONTLINE's "WACO-- The Inside Story," can be purchased through WGBH Educational Foundation at: Mailing Address: WGBH/WACO--The Inside Story P.O. Box 2284 South Burlington,VT 05407-2284 Phone Number: 1-800-255-9424 Original Air Date: October 17, 1995 - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 17:01:40 -0600 From: Will Thompson Subject: Re: [Waco:TROE Tonight!] Charles Hardy wrote: > > Maybe of some interest... > > ----BEGIN FORWARDED MESSGE---- > > XXX XXXX called me to say that "Waco: The Rules of Engagement" will be > on "Frontline" on Ch. 7 at 8:00 PM tonight. > > ----END FORWARDED MESSAGE---- > Yup, From KUED's page.... 8:00 p.m. Frontline: Waco: The Inside Story. Frontline investigates the FBI siege of the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas, and its fiery end. (CC) (S) (E) - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 17:12:58 -0600 From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: Re: [Waco:TROE Tonight!] Bummer!! But thanks for the correction. On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Will Thompson posted: >Charles Hardy wrote: >> >> Maybe of some interest... >> >> ----BEGIN FORWARDED MESSGE---- >> >> XXX XXXX called me to say that "Waco: The Rules of Engagement" will be >> on "Frontline" on Ch. 7 at 8:00 PM tonight. >> >> ----END FORWARDED MESSAGE---- >> > >Yup, > >From KUED's page.... > > 8:00 p.m. > Frontline: Waco: The Inside Story. > Frontline investigates the FBI siege of > the Branch Davidian compound in > Waco, Texas, and its fiery end. (CC) > (S) (E) > >- > > - -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these things I'm fairly certain 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it. "No man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against the tyranny in government. -- Thomas Jefferson, June 1776 - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 08:45:33 -0600 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: Meeting on 1998 Brady Changes Received: from wvc ([204.246.130.34]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 22:59:58 -0600 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA28807; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 22:49:37 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id AAA24989; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 00:58:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 00:58:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma024840; Wed Jun 24 00:56:11 1998 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980624042223.008cead8@inet.realresume.com> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: rlh@recon.org Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk From: Richard Hartman To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Meeting on 1998 Brady Changes X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Forwarded from another list, sanitized to preserve anonymity. - ----- Today in Baton Rouge, we attended, along with a few hundred FFL dealers, a conference concerning the November 1998 Brady Law changes. = Some of it was informative and ATF presented itself in a concerned manner. =20 The focus was a demonstration of how the November 1998 Brady forms = will be handled. To summerize the demo, there will be three ways to validate a gun purchaser. =20 First will be by phone. The charge will be $13-$17. This price is subject to change. You will be able to call 8 AM until 2 AM, seven days a week except Thanksgiving and Christmas. You will speak to an operator and the only information given will be name, address, and general information about the purchaser and whether the purchase is a long gun or a pistol or both. No other info is needed. Second will be by modem. The package is not complete for this transaction. The demo works just like the phone verification but you key all information in. The charge will be less. There was no range of = charges given. =20 Third will be by key pad. It was not demonstrated and not much information was given. =20 Concealed carry permits are exempt as are certain LE purchases. =20 There will be a NTN (NICS tracking number) given for every transaction= . Upon approval, the NTN will go on your record book and 4473. Upon disapproval, the NTN will be given to the purchaser and s/he will be given the right to appeal. =20 The database that is checked basically checks the responses given on the 4473. Example: John Doe lies about a domestic violance charge on the 4473. The charge is in the data base and he is denied. If he is clear, no hits come up and he is approved. The other option is a wait status. This can be caused by lack of info such as John Smith on Main Street in Erath, Louisiana, is just too general and multiple hits will inevitably = come up. =20 Each firearms dealer will have to join the FBI/NICS group. We do not know if there is a charge for this. =20 I actually felt good about ATF after this meeting. I do not care for the charge on my customers, but if all works as planned it should not be = an inconvience. =20 - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 15:30:54 -0600 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: Mother Jones- another gun poll Received: from wvc ([204.246.130.34]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 14:10:11 -0600 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA29403; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 13:59:47 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id QAA29007; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 16:08:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 16:08:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma028697; Wed Jun 24 16:06:56 1998 Message-Id: Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: Eaco@TerraSys.com Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk From: "R. Lunn" To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Mother Jones- another gun poll X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline These guys never learn. We trounced them a few years ago... - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- <> S N A P P O L L ___________________________________________________ THIS WEEK'S POLL: The mayors of Philadelphia, Chicago, and New Orleans are threatening to sue gun manufacturers in an attempt to hold them responsible= for gun violence in the cities. Do you think gunmakers should be liable for deaths and injuries caused by their products? Vote and discuss at: http://www.motherjones.com/ <> - ----------------------------------------------------------- So far the results are: 22.19% say Yes=20 77.81% say No=20 311 have voted=20 Vote early and vote often... DVC - -- Regards, >>Dick<< - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 98 18:20:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Colt Cries "Foul" Over Lies.... - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 22:43:55 -0400 From: "John A. Quayle" To: liberty-and-justice@pobox.com Colt will not stand by silently while the Coalition of New Jersey Sportsmen (CNJS) tells lies about our Company. We are preparing to take the appropriate legal action against the individual parties responsible and their sponsor for liable, slander, trade disparagement, tortious interference with contractual relations and/or other causes of action. Our company does not contribute to political campaigns or political parties. Colt is proud to be the developer of advanced technology and looks forward to bringing a new option to the firearm consumer. We do not now, nor have we ever, supported a mandate for Smart Guns. Since 1836 Colt has proudly sold firearms to millions of people. We continue to fight for and support an individual's right to own a firearm. Accusation Colt supports a mandate of the Smart Gun Truth As the Philadelphia Inquirer reported the week of the NRA show, "While technology such as this should not be mandated," Stewart wrote, "it should be an option for the consumer." In fact, CNJS was aware of this but continued to make this false accusation. Accusation Colt is actively lobbying to mandate this gun. Truth Colt testified, in writing, at the New Jersey hearing opposing this legislation to mandate a Smart Gun. These Bills were defeated through the combined efforts of the NRA and Colt. Colt has also had several conversations with their respective congressional delegation opposing any activity in the United States Congress to mandate the effort. Accusation Colt has been "Caught Red Handed Donating to Charles Schumer's Campaign Fund". . Truth Colt does not have a Political Action Committee. Colt does not contribute to any political campaigns or political candidates. Mr. Zilkha is not an employee of this company but is a non-employee Chairman of the Board. He is one of many owners and has other companies, including some in New York. He has contributed to a number of Republicans including Speaker Newt Gingrich, Bob Dole and George Bush. Accusation Mr. Stewart's mismanagement has placed Colt in dire financial condition. Truth To the contrary, Mr. Stewart and his management team have brought financial stability to Colt. This is evidenced by the introduction of many new and well-accepted products as well as the recently announced acquisition of Saco Defense. Accusation Colt supports the mandate of trigger locks. Truth Colt was one of the only major manufacturers not present at the "Rose Garden Ceremony". In fact, we are on record as opposing it because it presents a false sense of security to the consumer. Just as Colt will continue to protect your right to own a firearm, we will be equally vigilant in protecting the truth. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The following letter was sent on June 18, 1998: VIA FACSIMILE AND FIRST CLASS MAIL June 18, 1998 Mr. Richard Miller, Chairman Coalition of New Jersey Sportsmen P.O. Box 345 Holmdel, NJ 07733 Mr. Alan Rice, Chairman Legislative Committee Coalition of New Jersey Sportsmen P.O. Box 345 Holmdel, NJ 07733 Re: Libel and Slander Against Colt's Manufacturing Company, Inc., Ronald L. Stewart, Its President and CEO, and Donald E. Zilkha, Its Chairman Dear Mssrs. Miller and Rice: Please be informed that the law firm of Gadsby & Hannah LLP represents Colt's Manufacturing Company, Inc. ("Colt's"), Mr. Ronald L. Stewart, its President and Chief Executive Officer, and Mr. Donald E. Zilkha, its Chairman, the latter two gentlemen of whom are private individuals. Reference is made to the so-called "Public Service Message" of the Coalition of New Jersey Sportsmen that was distributed at the NRA Show in Philadelphia earlier this month and the message of June 17, 1998 released on the Internet and appearing at the http://GunsSaveLives.com website. Our clients take strong exception to the truth of your collectively outrageous statements. To be blunt, your statements are transparent lies without substance or foundation. We can only conclude that each of you made these statements with actual malice, i.e., each of you had knowledge of the falsity of your statements or recklessly disregarded the truth. The result of your defamatory, slanderous and otherwise wrongful conduct, including your call for a boycott against Colt's, is gross injury to the reputation of Colt's and its business. Moreover, the reputation and trade profession of Mssrs. Stewart and Zilkha personally have been irreparably harmed. Enclosed is a copy of our rebuttal that was disseminated in an attempt to stem further damages caused by each of you. In view of the foregoing, we hereby demand that each of you and the Coalition of New Jersey Sportsmen do all of the following: 1. Immediately cease and desist from making any further slanderous or libelous statements against Colt's, Mr. Stewart, Mr. Zilkha, or any other directors, officers, employees or representatives of Colt's; 2. Advise us in writing of the dates, times, places, forums, publications, Internet websites and audiences to whom the subject statements were published; and, 3. Publicly retract the subject statements, end the boycott and issue a public apology to Colt's, Mr. Stewart, and Mr. Zilkha in each of the venues you identified in item (2) above. Please remit in writing to the undersigned, at our Washington, DC address, the information requested no later than 3:00 p.m. on Tuesday, June 23, 1998. We hereby reserve all our rights and remedies that could be exercised by our clients against you and the Coalition of New Jersey Sportsmen at this time. If you fail to fully comply with this demand, you will leave us with no other alternative but to seek all legal remedies, including, but not limited to, damages for libel, slander, trade disparagement, tortious interference with contractual relations and/or other causes of action, against you, the Coalition of New Jersey Sportmen, together with any or all of its Board Members, Sponsors, and Trustees, as individuals. Should a lawsuit be commenced, we will not only seek damages but all of our attorneys' fees and costs associated with such legal action. Very.truly.yours, Michael_A._Hordell Gadsby & Hannah LLP 1747 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW Washington, DC 20006 enclosure cc: via first class mail Coalition of New Jersey Sportsmen Officers and Board Members Coalition of New Jersey Sportsmen Defender Sponsors Coalition of New Jersey Sportsmen Trustees - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 98 18:20:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: ABC GUN POLL (we are losing big) VOTE OFTEN!!! - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 20:57:15 -0600 From: spiker To: New Republican Discussion List Subject: ABC GUN POLL (we are loosing big) VOTE OFTEN!!! Click here to vote. http://www.abcnews.com/ "In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn'tspeak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up."--Pastor Niemoller Sincerely, David E. Parsons Denver,CO Home Page http://members.tripod.com/~DAVIDPARSONS/index.html ICQ# 7869261 ICQ - World's Largest Internet Online Communication Network http://www.mirabilis.com/ - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 98 18:20:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Mayors won't aim at gun makers -- yet - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:59:55 -0400 From: "Mark A. Smith" To: SNET , L & J , David Rydel Cc: Ray Southwell , Norm Olson http://www.freep.com/news/metro/qarch23.htm Mayors won't aim at gun makers -- yet But Archer sees litigation as possible route June 23, 1998 BY MELANIE EVERSLEY Free Press Washington Staff RENO, Nev. -- Detroit Mayor Dennis Archer on Monday became the third big-city mayor to raise the possibility of legal action against gun manufacturers. Archer's comments at the U.S. Conference of Mayors in Reno came one day after the conference decided to not yet pursue a joint lawsuit against the gun industry, which some mayors say has a responsibility to help curb violence in America's cities. The group, a Washington-based lobby of 300 mayors, instead opted to form a task force of mayors and gun makers that would push for legislation and gun-safety technology. The task force would make its first report to the mayors' group in January. Chicago and Philadelphia have contemplated suing the industry, seeking either to change gun-related advertising or to recoup the municipal costs of violence, but have not yet taken official action. Detroit could follow those two cities, Archer said. "We will consider if the discussions that are to take place this summer, with the results to be unveiled at our meeting in January, do not prove to be fruitful," Archer said. "I think it's important that our citizens are protected, to be sure, but I also believe that there needs to be, if we can't work it out, litigation." Philadelphia Mayor Edward Rendell, who led Sunday's push at the mayors' meeting for taking a more diplomatic approach with the gun industry, suggested a joint lawsuit might still be the better route for cities once the task force releases its findings. "As the first city really to contemplate a lawsuit, I'm not ruling out a lawsuit. We'd certainly be strengthened if the Detroits, Chicagos and Philadelphias and many other cities banded together to form that lawsuit ...but I think we can wait for the next four to six months to see what progress we make with the gun manufacturers," Rendell said Monday. "I'm encouraged by the fact that Mayor Archer feels as strongly as he does on this -- let's see where we go," he said. All content copyright 1998 Detroit Free Press and may not be republished without permission. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 08:02:27 -0600 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: Sorry...I couldn't resist... Received: from wvc ([204.246.130.34]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 04:07:55 -0600 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id DAA29985; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 03:57:33 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id GAA23861; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 06:05:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 06:05:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma023709; Thu Jun 25 06:03:26 1998 Message-Id: Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: dugga@pacifier.com Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk From: dugga@pacifier.com (Doug Spittler) To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Sorry...I couldn't resist... X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline >Today's Quote: > >"There is no truth to the rumor that President Clinton's visit to >Tiananmen Square is a Democratic National Committee fund-raiser," > > "It is just a'donor-maintenance event.'" > > -- Terry Campo. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 08:39:44 -0600 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: FW: GSL> U.S. State Department advising carry weapons for protect Received: from wvc ([204.246.130.34]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 08:07:26 -0600 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA00123; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 07:57:03 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id KAA04155; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 10:05:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 10:05:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma004025; Thu Jun 25 10:04:09 1998 Message-Id: Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: KGrubb@carnival.com Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk From: "Grubb, Ken" To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: FW: GSL> U.S. State Department advising carry weapons for protect X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline forwarded from GSL >DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME > >Conditions had deteriorated rapidly in Algeria when, on May 2, the >U.S. State Department warned against travel in that nation. "The >department urged Americans who choose to ignore the travel warning to >exercise caution," so reported the May 3 Lexington, Kentucky, Courier >Journal, "and [to] take the same precautions that U.S. Embassy >personnel and U.S. oil companies ... in Algeria take, including ... >using armed guards at the airports and carrying weapons for >protection." NRA member Robert Zoeller sent the clipping in with a >note that read: "To me it seems ironic that United States citizens are >being encouraged to ignore Algerian gun control laws while in that >country, while at the same time the Clinton-Gore Administration is >attempting to disarm the American public here at home." Couldn't have >put it better ourselves. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 14:14:36 -0600 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: ALERT! Dangerous desiccant? (fwd) This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to properly handle MIME multipart messages. - --=_BAEE10DA.C8A9C5D3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Reply to ALERT! Dangerous desiccant? I have worked with desiccants from several manufacturers, all MIL-spec, = and have found no corrosion or compatibility problem with metals. United = Desiccants said that there is a possible concern with the brown Kraft = paper bags on electronics, but desiccants are made to be stored with metal = parts. Mil-spec desiccants are corrosion tested on steel copper aluminum and = brass. United confirmed that there is no corrosion from either the Kraft = paper or desiccant itself on any of the above metals. This type of = desiccant contains dry granulated clay, similar to kitty litter, and is = made to be placed in containers with metal parts during shipping or = storage. I have done engineering tests myself where the Kraft paper bags, the only = ones with the sulfur paper, were placed directly on steel and aluminum = parts for a year. The bags did not cause corrosion even on a type of = steel that will rust in a few hours in a humid environment. At my present employer there is a concern that the desiccant bags could = break open and granular desiccant would contaminate chemicals. To prevent = the possible contamination of stored chemicals, the desiccant bags are = placed inside cotton bags and the cotton bags are placed inside perforated = plastic bottles. They have used desiccant this way for over 30 years = without a problem. A similar application for a gun safe could be to put the desiccant inside = an old sock (without holes) and hang it inside the safe. If you want = double protection you could make a lot of holes in a plastic bottle and = put the desiccant-filled sock inside the plastic bottle. The sock and = bottle will prevent direct contact of the sulfur-containing paper with = valuable metal.=20 United Desiccant's Quality Manager said that there is a very small amount = of sulfur in the Kraft paper which can be leached if there is enough water = available. Excess water with sulfur could then drip on the electronic = components. Electronics are very sensitive due to very thin layers of = copper and the circuits can be damaged by the slightest corrosion from = sulfur. Neil Sagers - --=_BAEE10DA.C8A9C5D3 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: from wvc ([204.246.130.34]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 01:47:40 -0600 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id BAA29927; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 01:37:19 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id DAA19277; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 03:42:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 03:42:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma019159; Thu Jun 25 03:38:27 1998 Message-Id: <9806250720.0nge@xpresso.seaslug.org> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: noban@xpresso.seaslug.org Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk From: noban@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: ALERT! Dangerous desiccant? (fwd) X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Jun 24, Jacques Tucker wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows -------------------= - -] A WMSA member in the boonies of Missouri advises us that he ordered = various cartridges and surplus military ammo cans from the Cheaper Than Dirt catalog. CTD is a firm in Ft. Worth that apparently has a full page ad = for their catalog in the American Rifleman mag. He says there was also desiccant listed in the catalog just under the ammo cans, so he ordered a batch to help preserve the items he planned to = store. A cautious fellow, he called the desiccant manufacturer to verify it was wise to use it with his ammo, etc. "Oh," said the lady who answered, "don't use that for metal. It has sulphur in the paper and will destroy any metal." The manufacturer of the desiccant is United Desiccants, 127 Christine Dr., Belen, NM 67002. Their toll free line is 800-989-3374. The MilSpec on = the 5.5 oz. packages is MIL-D-3464 Type I and II. Our member called the NRA several times to alert them of the problem. He indicates they really don't care. "It doesn't matter." Advertising revenue may be more important, I suppose? He was able to get credit from the vendor, CDT, for just trashing this stuff. It costs more to ship than it's worth. Let your gunner friends know of this potential disaster. Jacq' Jacques Tucker Western Missouri Shooters Alliance [------------------------- end of forwarded message -----------------------= - -] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= - - ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------= - - An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand =3D Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy = a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus = Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------= - - - --=_BAEE10DA.C8A9C5D3-- - - ------------------------------ End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #77 **********************************