From: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com (utah-firearms-digest) To: utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: utah-firearms-digest V2 #84 Reply-To: utah-firearms-digest Sender: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk utah-firearms-digest Monday, July 13 1998 Volume 02 : Number 084 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:37:04 -0600 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: Re: Lott/Olin Connection Received: from wvc ([204.246.130.34]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 15:11:28 -0600 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA14282; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 15:00:04 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id RAA19178; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 17:08:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 17:08:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma019123; Sun Jul 12 17:06:43 1998 Message-Id: Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: TSBench@aol.com Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk From: TSBench@aol.com To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Lott/Olin Connection X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline If I recall, someone on this list was looking for a rebuttal of the Lott/Olin?Winchester-Western connection. Following is the letter from the President of the Olin Foundation, printed in the WSJ, that did a number on that. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= - --- - ------------------------------ Wall Street Journal Letter to Editor September 6, 1996 An Insult to Our Foundation As president of the John M. Olin Foundation, I take great umbrage at Rep. Charles Schumer's scurrilous charge (Letters to the Editor, Sept. 4) that our foundation underwrites bogus research to advance the interests of companies that manufacture guns and ammunition. He asserts (falsely) that the John M. Olin Foundation is "associated" with the Olin Corp. and (falsely again) that the Olin Corp. is one of the nation's largest gun manufacturers. Mr. Schumer then suggests on the basis of these premises that Prof. John Lott's article on gun control legislation (editorial page, Aug. 28) must have been fabricated because his research fellowship at the University of Chicago was funded by the John M. Olin Foundation. This is an outrageous slander against our foundation, the Olin Corp., and the scholarly integrity of Prof. Lott. Mr. Schumer would have known that his charges were false if he had taken a little time to check his facts before rushing into print. Others have taken the trouble to do so. For example, Stephen Chapman of the Chicago Tribune looked into the charges surrounding Mr. Lott's study, and published an informative story in the Aug. 15 issue of that paper, which concluded that, in conducting his research, Prof. Lott was not influenced either by the John M. Olin Foundation or by the Olin Corp. Anyone wishing to comment on this controversy ought first to consult Mr. Chapman's article and, more importantly, should follow his example of sifting the facts before reaching a conclusion. For readers of the Journal, here are the key facts: The John M. Olin Foundation, of which I have been president for nearly 20 years, is an independent foundation whose purpose is to support individuals and institutions working to strengthen the free enterprise system. We support academic programs at the finest institutions in the nation, including the University of Chicago, Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Columbia, the University of Virginia, and many others. We do not tell scholars what to write or what to say. The foundation was created by the personal fortune of the late John M. Olin, and is not associated with the Olin Corp. The Olin Corp. has never sought to influence our deliberations. Our trustees have never taken into account the corporate interests of the Olin Corp. or any other company when reviewing grant proposals. We are as independent of the Olin Corp. as the Ford Foundation is of the Ford Motor Co. The John M. Olin Foundation has supported for many years a program in law and economics at the University of Chicago Law School. This program is administered and directed by a committee of faculty members in the law school. This committee, after reviewing many applications in a very competitive process, awarded a research fellowship to Mr. Lott. We at the foundation had no knowledge of who applied for these fellowships, nor did we ever suggest that Mr. Lott should be awarded one of them. We did not commission his study, nor, indeed, did we even know of it until last month, when Mr. Lott presented his findings at a conference sponsored by a Washington think tank. As a general rule, criticism of research studies should be based on factual grounds rather than on careless and irresponsible charges about the motives of the researcher. Mr. Lott's study should be evaluated on its own merits without imputing motives to him that do not exist. I urge Mr. Schumer to check his facts more carefully in the future. Finally, it was incorrectly reported in the Journal (Sept. 5) that the John M. Olin Foundation is "headed by members of the family that founded the Olin Corp." This is untrue. The trustees and officers of the foundation have been selected by virtue of their devotion to John Olin's principles, not by virtue of family connections. Of our seven board members, only one is a member of the Olin family. None of our officers is a member of the Olin family--neither myself as president, nor our secretary- treasurer, nor our executive director. William E. Simon President John M. Olin Foundation Inc. New York - ---------------------- Regards, TSB - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:42:36 -0600 From: "David Sagers" Subject: [Fwd: Houston Chron story on CCW law failure] Received: from wvc ([204.246.130.34]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 19:00:34 -0600 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA13698; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 18:49:00 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id UAA21008; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 20:56:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 20:56:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma020958; Sat Jul 11 20:52:55 1998 Message-Id: <35A7FE7F.92904DF9@inetnebr.com> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: lball@inetnebr.com Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk From: larry ball To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: [Fwd: Houston Chron story on CCW law failure] X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------47DE90F2D185F1F165F7223A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am forwarding this from Texas Gun Owners List. It shows, I believe, one of the chief problems with the permit system (aside from the fact that such a system is a violation of fundamental right.) That problem is that it permits cataloging of supposed offenses and then promotes the demand for greater regulation and outright repeal. The demand for permits will get us into as much trouble as the insta-check law is creating. Notice in the following piece that ALL arrests, gun related or not, are counted against the CHL law. Notice that there is NO comparison agains a benchmark such as the arrest records of police. Notice that they have tabulated charges and NOT convictions. The Permit system is NOT the way to go. A stand for RIGHT is. Tell the NRA to wake up! Larry Ball lball@inetnebr.com - --------------47DE90F2D185F1F165F7223A Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list.net (mailing-list.net [192.41.59.89]) by falcon.inetnebr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA09723 for ; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 18:06:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mlist@localhost) by mailing-list.net (8.8.5) id = RAA01159; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 17:06:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: by mailing-list.net (bulk_mailer v1.9); Sat, 11 Jul 1998 = 17:06:11 -0600 Received: (mlist@localhost) by mailing-list.net (8.8.5) id RAA01137; Sat, = 11 Jul 1998 17:06:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from insync.net (root@vellocet.insync.net [204.253.208.10]) by = mailing-list.net (8.8.5) id RAA01119; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 17:06:08 -0600 = (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: mailing-list.net: Host root@vellocet.insync.net = [204.253.208.10] claimed to be insync.net Received: from 209-113-28-3.insync.net (209-113-28-3.insync.net [209.113.28= .3]) by insync.net (8.8.8/8.7.1) with SMTP id SAA13870; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 = 18:06:11 -0500 (CDT) From: chasm@insync.net (schuetzen) To: texas-gun-owners@Mailing-List.net Subject: Houston Chron story on CCW law failure Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 18:01:42 -0500 Message-ID: <35bdee9e.375404559@mailhost.insync.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-texas-gun-owners@Mailing-List.net Reply-To: texas-gun-owners@Mailing-List.net Posted to texas-gun-owners by chasm@insync.net (schuetzen) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 8:24 PM 7/10/1998=20 =20 =20 Arrest statistics fuel fears over gun law Cases involve 1,600 Texans with permits to carry concealed arms By JOHN W. GONZALEZ=20 Copyright 1998 Houston Chronicle Austin Bureau=20 AUSTIN -- More than 1,600 Texans with permits to carry concealed handguns have been arrested for state crimes since the "right-to-carry" law went into effect in 1996, the Department of Public Safety said Friday.=20 The disclosure came with confirmation that an Austin permit-holder, charged with murder this week after gunning down a suspected car burglar near the Sixth Street entertainment district, is the fifth licensee to be accused of murder. Nearly 200,000 Texans are licensed to carry concealed handguns. Licensees have been arrested a total of 2,203 times, though not all the crimes involved weapons and many of the charges were dismissed, the DPS said. Nearly 600 of the arrests were on federal or out-of-state charges and non-criminal matters such as tax delinquency.=20 Opponents of the law find the numbers a confirmation of their fears.=20 "There have been well over 1,000 individuals who had permits who have been charged with crimes -- everything from criminal mischief to disorderly conduct to attempted murder," said Travis County Constable Bruce Elfant, who campaigned against the concealed-carry law passed by the 1995 Legislature.=20 "My concern is that with as little as 10 hours of training, we're expecting them to exercise the same level of judgment as police officers. I don't think that's realistic, and it's not good public policy," said Elfant, a spokesman for Texans Against Gun Violence.=20 The more serious charges compiled by the DPS include 97 counts of aggravated assault, 26 counts of aggravated sexual assault, 24 counts of assault causing bodily injury and nine counts of attempted murder.=20 Although one license has been revoked and three suspended by DPS because of murder allegations, no license-holder has ever actually been tried for murder -- a fact that gun-rights supporters cite as proof the Texas law provides for adequate screening and training, even in use of deadly force.=20 Last year in Houston, a state district judge was cleared by a grand jury in the shooting death of a mentally ill homeless man who attacked him. The judge had pursued the man for stealing another lawyer's briefcase. The case was referred to the grand jury with no charges.=20 State Sen. Jerry Patterson, R-Pasadena, the lifetime National Rifle Association member who authored the concealed-weapon law, on Friday predicted the Austin shooting would not produce an indictment nor cause legislative tinkering in 1999.=20 Killed with two .380-caliber gunshot wounds to the back was Eric Demart Smith, 20. Unarmed and carrying no stolen items, Smith was slain in a downtown alley about 2 a.m. Wednesday, police said.=20 Free in lieu of $100,000 bond after being jailed on a murder charge is Paul A. Saustrup, 33, a self-employed mechanic with a permit to carry a concealed handgun.=20 His attorney said this week that Saustrup was lawfully defending his girlfriend's property when he shot Smith, whom they caught breaking into the woman's Chevrolet Suburban. Saustrup used deadly force after Smith refused to submit to a citizen's arrest and made verbal death threats and menacing gestures, the lawyer said.=20 But Austin police and Travis County prosecutors said Saustrup acted unreasonably. Citing the fact that Saustrup pursued Smith three blocks before shooting him in the back, they charged Saustrup with murder, a crime punishable by up to life in prison. Prosecutors will ask a grand jury to review the case.=20 At least three other Texans licensed to carry handguns have been cleared of wrongdoing after killing someone; disposition of a fourth case could not immediately be determined.=20 Saustrup's case likewise should end with a grand jury declining to indict him, Patterson said.=20 "Would I have done what this gentleman did? Probably not. But what he did was lawful," Patterson said.=20 "There are a couple of lessons here," he added. "The first one is, don't steal cars. The second lesson is, if you have a license and you shoot somebody, you will spend some time explaining it to a grand jury."=20 Saustrup faces a first-degree felony charge of "knowingly and intentionally" killing Smith, said Assistant District Attorney Buddy Meyer. He added that Saustrup invoked his right against self-incrimination in refusing to talk to investigators.=20 Saustrup's attorney, Sandra Ritz, described her client as "a normal guy, a good kid, one of four brothers who pretty much raised themselves." She said that 45 to 50 letters from friends attesting to Saustrup's "good character" showed up at her law office unsolicited within hours of his arrest.=20 On Austin talk-radio shows and Internet chat rooms, Saustrup has been portrayed both as a vigilante and as a hero.=20 The fact that the fleeing burglary suspect was shot in the back, blocks away from the crime scene, caused many to claim the shooting was premeditated and an unreasonable response to the property damage. But other Austinites praised Saustrup's bravery and predicted he would not be indicted.=20 Ritz said a 911 recording would prove Saustrup tried to make a peaceful citizen's arrest but used his weapon because he feared for his life. She added that autopsy results should verify his claim that Smith was wheeling around when shot. Preliminary findings reportedly indicated the two bullets entered below each shoulder blade and penetrated the victim's heart.=20 The fatal shooting, near the Austin Convention and Visitors Center, occurred about three blocks from where Saustrup and his girlfriend claimed they caught Smith ransacking the woman's Suburban. As they approached, they noticed its brake lights illuminated and a window broken, Ritz said.=20 "Paul pulled his handgun out and told him to get out of the car. This guy threatened that there were other `homies' around there and they were going to kill him," Ritz said.=20 "Paul made a comment that he was making a citizen's arrest for burglary of his vehicle and he wanted this person to get out of the car, lay on the floor and leave his hands where he could see them."=20 She said the man lifted up his T-shirt, pointed to gang tattoos and said, "Do you know what these are?" and "My homies are going to kill you."=20 Saustrup then asked his girlfriend to take the cellular phone out of his back pocket to call police, said Ritz, who added that she stayed on the phone with 911 dispatchers throughout the ordeal and was only known witness.=20 "Paul was obviously fearing for his life at that point," Ritz said. "This person was digging in his belt and crotch area and made a sudden sharp turn toward Paul, and at that time, Paul shot him."=20 Unbeknown to Saustrup, the man he confronted was a property-crime and drug offender on probation with two felony and five misdemeanor convictions in Dallas, all resulting in probationary terms, police said.=20 Ritz said Saustrup's reaction was based on his instincts and training and was not an overreaction or the work of a "vigilante."=20 "They try to prevent vigilante-type situations by educating people. He was as educated as the handgun law requires. He was educated, in fact, by a DPS officer," Ritz said.=20 "Under the law, he was authorized to use deadly force at the time he saw him burglarizing the vehicle at night time. But he didn't use deadly force at that time. He called 911 and tried to get the law over there.=20 "All he was trying to do was keep this criminal from fleeing."=20 - -- For help with Majordomo commands, send a message to majordomo@mailing-list.= net with the word help in the message body. - --------------47DE90F2D185F1F165F7223A-- - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:22:10 -0600 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: Upcoming Federal Legislation Received: from wvc ([204.246.130.34]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 21:21:38 -0600 Received: from listbox.com by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id VAA13024; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 21:11:02 -0600 Received: (qmail 12556 invoked by uid 516); 11 Jul 1998 03:20:27 -0000 Delivered-To: rkba-co@majordomo.pobox.com Received: (qmail 12475 invoked from network); 11 Jul 1998 03:20:18 -0000 Received: from growl.pobox.com (208.210.124.27) by majordomo.pobox.com with SMTP; 11 Jul 1998 03:20:18 -0000 Received: from mg2.rockymtn.net (mailserv.rockymtn.net [166.93.205.12]) by growl.pobox.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAB09556 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 23:20:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 166-93-76-53.rmi.net (166-93-76-53.rmi.net [166.93.76.53]) by mg2.rockymtn.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA11109; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 20:52:25 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807110252.UAA11109@mg2.rockymtn.net> X-Sender: davisda@rmi.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 20:53:12 -0600 To: davisda@rmi.net From: Douglas Davis Subject: Upcoming Federal Legislation Sender: owner-rkba-co.new@majordomo.pobox.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rkba-co@majordomo.pobox.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Posted to rkba-co by Douglas Davis - ----------------------- >Return-Path: >Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 16:46:36 -0400 >From: Gun Owners of America >Reply-To: Gun Owners of America >To: goamail@gunowners.org >Subject: Upcoming Federal Legislation > >House to Reconvene Next Week: > >Issues affecting your 1st and 2nd Amend. >Rights soon coming for a vote > >by Gun Owners of America >8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102, Springfield, VA 22151, >(703)321-8585, http://www.gunowners.org > >(Friday, July 10, 1998) > > >ACTION: Send the letter found below to Sen. Bob Smith >(R-NH). He's the number one champion in the U.S. Senate >defending our rights, and we need to encourage him to remain >strong against the pressures of the leadership in Washington, >D.C.! > > >Incumbent Protection Bill to rear its ugly head again (Call >Capitol Hill: 202-225-3121) > >It's often said that two things you can count on are "death and >taxes." Well, add another one to the list: "Politicians always >find ways to keep themselves in power." Last year, Senators >McCain and Feingold tried to force the passage of an >Incumbent Protection Bill, but were thwarted by a minority of >Senators. (As you may remember, that bill would have heavily >restricted the ability of GOA to communicate with its members >on 2nd Amendment issues.) Earlier this year, Representatives >defeated a similar proposal in the House. But the battle is far >from over. > >A threatened discharge petition has forced the issue once >again in the House. Rep. Tom DeLay (R-TX) has done a >yeoman's job of trying to kill the Incumbent Protection Bill, and >has organized the introduction of over 400 "killer" amendments >to the bill. > >For example, on Tuesday, July 14, an amendment sponsored >by Rep. John Doolittle (R-CA) will be voted on. His >amendment will preserve the ability of groups - like GOA - to >provide you with voter guide information near an election. >[Under the House Incumbent Protection Plan (introduced by >Reps. Shays and Meehan), these kinds of voter guides would >be made virtually illegal.] Ask your Reps. to support the >Doolittle amendment and to vigorously oppose any so-called >Campaign Finance Reform like the Shays-Meehan bill (H.R. >3526) that would trample the 1st Amendment. > > >Pro-gun champion Sen. Bob Smith still has his "hold" on >Hatch's Horror Bill (S. 10) > >Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-UT) called a press conference in late June >to push his fledgling anti-gun crime bill. GOA had met with his >staff - and the staff of Sen. Sessions (R-AL) - to discuss our >opposition to the bill. While some positive changes have been >made, S. 10 still contains anti-gun provisions. Thus, GOA's >strong opposition to the bill remains in force. > >Meanwhile, Sen. Bob Smith (R-NH) still has a "hold" on S. 10, >and recently indicated to Gun Owners of America his intention >to continue fighting for the rights of gun owners. People should >write Sen. Smith and thank him for his vigilant defense of our >constitutional rights. [See the letter below.] > > >Sen. Smith puts FBI on notice; looks to gut Brady >Registration Law > >In early June, the FBI released its draft proposals for >implementing the Brady Registration Act. Among other things, >the FBI wants to register gun owners for at least 18 months >and to impose an additional tax on certain gun owners. > >After the FBI draft regulations were issued, Senator Bob Smith >put the FBI on notice regarding his intentions to get an >amendment placed in an upcoming appropriations bill. The >Smith amendment would defund the ability of the FBI to collect >a tax on gun owners. Moreover, it would defund any attempt >by the FBI to use the Brady instant check as a mechanism to >keep gun owners' names, and requires the "immediate >destruction of all [gun buyer] information, in any form >whatsoever." > >Finally, the Smith amendment improves upon other proposals >in Congress that would seek to prevent the FBI from registering >gun buyers. Other bills leave the "policing" of the FBI to >Attorney General Janet Reno. Not Senator Smith's language. >His proposal specifically allows for aggrieved private citizens >to sue the agency and collect monetary damages, including >attorney's fees. > > >Please send the letter below to Sen. Bob Smith. Senator Smith is >going to come under fire from the leadership in Washington for >the stand he's taken in defending gun owners' rights. > >We need to let him know that gun owners stand behind him! Don't >let the fact that you live outside of New Hampshire keep you from >contacting him. As a Presidential candidate, Senator Smith >should be happy to hear from you, even if you live outside of his >home state. > >To contact Senator Bob Smith: > >Fax: 202-224-1353 >Email: opinion@smith.senate.gov > > >-------------- Clip to Fax or E-Mail ------------------- > >Dear Senator Smith: > >I know that statesmanship can sometimes be a thankless job. And >so I wanted to make sure you knew that Americans like myself are >very grateful for your leadership on a couple of issues that >relate to gun owners. > >First, I'm sure that the "hold" you placed on S. 10 is one of the >main reasons this legislation has not proceeded forward. As long >as S. 10 applies RICO to firearms in any way, shape or form, then >this bill will remain unacceptable! Even beyond the RICO >problems, S. 10 still contains a myriad of penalties for innocent >activity that gun dealers and gun owners might engage in. These >penalties range from punishing dealers who make record-keeping >mistakes, to increasing penalties on gun owners for taking their >kids handgun shooting without a written note of permission. It's >incredible that legislation like this could even pass out of the >Senate Judiciary Committee! > >Second, I agree with you that the FBI needs to be slapped down in >its attempts to use the Brady Law to register and tax gun owners. >This registration scheme needs to be completely dismantled. But >short of that, your proposal is the next best way to deal with >bureaucratic abuse - hit them in the pocketbook! Giving >aggrieved citizens the ability to sue, and upon winning, to get >their attorney's fees, is certainly a potent way of keeping >bureaucrats from violating the privacy of gun owners. > >Again, thank you for your efforts on both of these fronts. If >you can single-handedly stop S. 10 from moving, then I'm all in >favor of that. And, whatever you can do to repeal the effects of >the Brady Registration Law will be "icing on the cake." Please >keep up the fight for our rights, and know that millions of >Americans like myself appreciate what you are doing. > >Sincerely, > >___________________________________________ > >___________________________________________ > >___________________________________________ > > > >**************************************************************** >Did someone else forward this alert to you? To be certain of >getting up-to-date information, please consider joining the GOA >E-Mail Alert Network directly. The service is free, your e-mail >address remains confidential, and the volume is quite low: five >messages a week would mean a very busy week indeed. To >subscribe, simply send a note (or forward this notice) to >goamail@gunowners.org and include your state of residence in >either the subject line or the body. > > > ****************** Firearms, self-defense, and other information, with LINKS are available at: http://shell.rmi.net/~davisda Latest additions are found in the group NEW with GOA and other alerts under the heading ALERTS. For those without browser capabilities, send [request index.txt] to davisda@rmi.net and an index of the files at this site will be e-mailed to you. Then send [request ] and the requested file will be sent as a message. Various shareware programs are archived at: ftp://shell.rmi.net/pub2/davisda To receive the contents of the FTP site, send [request index.ftp] to davisda@rmi.net ******************** For Help with Majordomo Commands, please send a message to: Majordomo@majordomo.pobox.com with the word Help in the body of the message - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:43:11 -0600 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: CS: Pol-Lethal Weapon 4 Received: from wvc ([204.246.130.34]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:39:20 -0600 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA14937; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:28:41 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id MAA27880; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:37:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:37:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma027763; Mon Jul 13 12:36:59 1998 Message-Id: Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: eschelon@eschelon.seanet.com Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk From: "E. J. Totty" To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Fwd: CS: Pol-Lethal Weapon 4 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Thot u'd all want to see this: ET - ------------------------------------------------------ >Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 05:40:53 -0400 >From: Steven Kendrick/UK >Subject: CS: Pol-Lethal Weapon 4 >To: CyberShooters >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Sender: owner-cybershooters@mail-it.com >Precedence: bulk > >> From: james.woodard >> >> To all gun owners: >> >> Save your money on this one!!! Not one minute into the movie Mel = Gibson >> slams the NRA (thought he was a free-thinking conservative?). Later in = the >> movie, Danny Glover is framed with a poster that states that a child is >> killed every day with a handgun; to make matters worse there is an >> international prohibition sign (red circle with a diagonal slash) with = NRA >> in the middle of it!!! Warner Brothers has got my last dime and with = it an >> angry letter. Spread the word to avoid this movie. If they want to = trash >> my 2nd Amendment rights while glorifying violence, they can kiss my ass > > ---------[advertisement]----------- > > We can't all sue the Government, but we can give money to > people who are making the attempt: > > Justice for Shooters, PO Box 705, Bourne End, Bucks, SL8 5FS. > http://home.rednet.co.uk/homepages/markg/index.html > > NPA Fighting Fund, BM Box 1456, London WC1N 3XX. > > "A pound a day keeps the gun-grabbers away" > > ----------[subscription info]---------- > > To subscribe (or unsubscribe), send email to > majordomo@mail-it.com with text: > > subscribe cybershooters (or unsubscribe cybershooters) > > as the first and only line in the message body. For further > information, please refer to the Cybershooters FAQ at > http://www.tsra.demon.co.uk/csfaq.htm > - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:51:34 -0600 From: "David Sagers" Subject: It's the Bill of Rights, Stupid MSGID: 1:362/627.0 35a5a808 * Crossposted from: Fido: Local Controversy(Net 362) It's the Bill of Rights, Stupid Especially the Second Amendment by L. Neil Smith Texas congressman Dick Armey is talking up some pretty good ideas -- for a Republican. According to a recent announcement, he wants to cut federal income taxes to a flat rate of 17 percent -- which is too much, but what do you expect? He would allow generous exemptions: $10,000 for individuals, $14,000 for single parents, $20,000 for couples, and so on, meaning that most people would wind up paying that 17 percent on merely a fraction of their income. The best news is that he would replace the hated Form 1040 with a postcard, and eliminate tax-withholding altogether, something that would be extremely good for this country. But what is he going to do about Kay Bailey Hutchison? Hutchison, you may recall, is the lady that conservatives were aflutter over, who humiliated the Democrats by taking Lloyd Bentsen's Senate seat away from them when he descended to the Clinton cabinet, and who survived what amounted to an assassination attempt -- assault-lawyers at thirty paces -- on the part of Governor Ann "Ma" Richards, more or less by staring the old crone squarely in the eye and saying, "Let she who is without graft cast the first aspersion." Great stuff. But when push came to shove, what kind of conservative, what kind of Republican, what kind of Senator did Kay turn out to be? No better than Ma Richards, really, who earned the contempt of everyone with an educated concern for the Bill of Rights by vetoing a liberalized concealed-carry statute passed overwhelmingly by her legislature. Bailey's first significant act as a United States Senator was to join one-too-many of her fellow Republicans in voting the Brady Bill - -- primarily intended to reduce handgun purchases by women -- into law. Ironically, the old pre-Waco Bentsen would probably have voted against it. And that, of course, set the stage for Republicans to join the Clinton Gang in its blatantly illegal attempt -- the Feinstein Amendment -- to outlaw that very class of weapons most clearly meant to be protected by the Second Amendment. Now what, I hear you asking, does Hutchison's dimwitted betrayal of the Constitution have to do with Armey's good-hearted, high-minded effort to help Americans keep more of their income? Simply this: conservatives frequently -- and erroneously -- assume that a free economy is the same thing as a free country. Let no one doubt my fervent desire for an economy less constrained than any Republican can imagine, but what good is money if you don't have any rights? Let me put it another way: the Bill of Rights is basically the only thing that keeps America from becoming the world's largest banana republic -- and there are plenty of banana republics that don't have any income tax at all. Or let me put it still another way, seeing as how Armey's proposal isn't good-hearted or high-minded at all, but just a stab -- and a commendable one -- at taking advantage of Bill and Hillary's loopy policies of governmental greed and implacable hatred for individual achievement: most observers on both sides of the ideological fence were quick to cite George Bush's broken promise about taxes as a factor in his 1992 defeat; few of them noticed -- or wanted to discuss publicly -- the fact that he lost by a margin remarkably similar to the number of gun-owning single-issue voters he had offended on several occasions. All along, it was the Bill of Rights, stupid -- especially the Second Amendment. Ancient Rome had some odd institutions, among them the phenomenon of wealthy slaves. I don't want to be part of that particular classical revival, do you? Tell you what, Dick, make me an offer I really can't refuse. Before you volunteer again to let me keep more of what was mine to begin with anyway, why not try enforcing the highest law of the land, the Bill of Rights? Each and every article. Lock up -- that's right, arrest, indict, try, and imprison -- those among your colleagues, Republican or Democrat, who attempt to vote my liberties away. I might take you seriously if you do that. You may not remember, but it's what you promised to do when you took office. Until then, I will continue to vote Libertarian -- and work as hard as I can at persuading others to do the same -- even if in practical terms it means seeing one slimy, repulsive, liberal Democrat after another elected to office. To put that another way, it may be necessary to destroy the GOP in order to save it. And it's preferable to supporting a party that consistently demonstrates treacherous disregard for certain basic civilities -- as embodied in the first ten Amendments to the Constitution -- to which we all supposedly agreed, so long ago. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ L. Neil Smith is the award-winning author of 19 books including The Probability Broach, The Crystal Empire, Henry Martyn, The Lando Calrissian Adventures, Pallas, and (forthcoming) Bretta Martyn and Lever Action. An NRA Life Member and founder of the Libertarian Second Amendment Caucus, he has been active in the Libertarian movement for 34 years and is its most prolific and widely-published living novelist. Permission to redistribute this article is herewith granted by the author - provided that it is reproduced unedited, in its entirety, and appropriate credit given. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ... Government's a disease masquerading as its own cure. - L. Neil Smith - --- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 # Origin: River Canyon Rd. BBS Chattanooga, Tn (1:362/627) GPTH: 362/627 701 3615/50 396/1 270/101 2624/306 273/304 GATE: 176:500/14.0@PRNet 35a82a36 * Origin: PRNet <-> FidoNet EchoGate! (176:500/14.0) - -- (Ray Ledford) AirPower Information Services BBS * 610-259-2193 The Shooter's Online Service - since 1989 http://www.airpower.com Telnet://airpower.dyn.ml.org - --=20 Regards Meplat =20 ********************************** =20 Take not lightly liberty To have it you must live it =20 And like love, don't you see To keep it you must give it =20 ********************************** - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:19:03 -0600 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: Harass Congress for Free Received: from wvc ([204.246.130.34]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:12:36 -0600 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA15051; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:01:59 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id OAA03323; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:11:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:11:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma003175; Mon Jul 13 14:08:48 1998 Message-Id: <214c80f4.35aa4227@aol.com> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: SAAMIDC@aol.com Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk From: SAAMIDC@aol.com To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Harass Congress for Free X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline FYI -- it'd be a good time to hit them on killing the NICS tax, particularl= y in the Senate, where the amendment will have to be shoved into the = Commerce- State-Justice Approps. bill on the floor. PGO'M. Wash., D.C. >MONDAY >JULY 13, 1998=20 > >New toll-free hotline to Congress=20 >Line working again after being shut down for months=20 > =20 >Congress is making a new toll-free number available for >citizens who would like to make their voices heard in > Washington.=20 > >The new number for the U.S. Capitol switchboard is >1-800-504-0031.=20 > >* 1998 Western Journalism Center=20 - - ------------------------------ End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #84 **********************************