From: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com (utah-firearms-digest) To: utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: utah-firearms-digest V2 #89 Reply-To: utah-firearms-digest Sender: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk utah-firearms-digest Thursday, July 23 1998 Volume 02 : Number 089 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:39:39 -0600 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: U.N. Establishes War-Crimes Court Received: from mail.interjetnet.net ([208.231.136.27]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 21:45:45 -0600 Received: from default (ppp091.interjetnet.net [208.236.167.91]) by mail.interjetnet.net (2.5 Build 2640 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id VAA00486; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 21:39:50 -0600 Message-ID: <001e01bdb45a$27090200$5ba7ecd0@default> From: "Josiah Liberty" To: "Josiah Liberty" Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 21:45:11 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_1E4A925F.C3A2CE2D" - --=_1E4A925F.C3A2CE2D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Grrrreat! Please Read this, it is very scary, especially the part about Forced = Pregnancy !!!!! Saturday, July 18, 1998=20 U.N. Establishes War-Crimes Court =20 =20 BY CRAIG TURNER LOS ANGELES TIMES=20 =20 =20 ROME -- A U.N. conference on Friday approved by overwhelming vote -- and over American objections -- a long-sought treaty creating a permanent international criminal court to punish those who = commit genocide, war crimes, torture and other atrocities.=20 Only six other nations joined the United States in opposing the court, which 120 countries endorsed. Joining the United States in = denouncing treaty provisos were nations like Libya, Algeria, China, Qatar = and Yemen. Most Western and emerging democracies, America's = traditional allies and three of the other four permanent members of the U.N. Security Council -- Britain, France and Russia -- voted for the court and rejected the U.S. position; 21 nations abstained.=20 Approval of the treaty, which still must be signed and formally ratified by at least 60 countries before it takes force, a process that could take years, was hailed by most delegates here and by human-rights advocates. They saw it as a bold experiment in reaching across national boundaries to bring to justice those who commit the world's worst abominatio= ns.=20 But David Scheffer, the chief U.S. representative here, = warned conference delegates that they were creating a court that would = be ``strong on paper but weak in reality.'' He said the United = States would not recognize the court's jurisdiction or authority in many = cases.=20 Scheffer also suggested the court treaty overreached = existing international law, threatened to undermine the U.N. Security = Council's responsibility to maintain international peace and grants too = much power to its prosecutor.=20 Washington has not decided if it will try to block the court by lobbying around the world against treaty ratification. A senior U.S. official said American experts must review the tribunal's potential effect on American troop commitments overseas.=20 The American objections reflect concern that the treaty = could expose U.S. military personnel to politically motivated charges.=20 When the American defeat was announced, the conference of diplomats became more akin to a rock concert as delegates and onlookers erupted into loud, rhythmic applause. During the = cacophony, the American delegates sat silently, looking grim and stunned. Countries that ratify the accord would agree to prosecute their citizens guilty of war crimes, genocide and crimes against humanity under their own = laws or to surrender them to the international tribunal for trial.=20 The international court, to be located in The Hague, = Netherlands, would have 18 judges, a prosecutor's office and an administrator.= Funding would come from parties to the treaty and in some cases = from the U.N. budget. Investigations leading to prosecutions could be initiated by signatory nations, the U.N. Security Council or independently by the prosecutor, subject to review by a pretrial panel of judges. = Violence against women, including rape, sexual slavery, enforced prostitution and forced pregnancy, has been codified as a war crime for the first time.=20 The maximum sentence facing defendants would be life imprisonment.=20 =20 =20 =20 - --=_1E4A925F.C3A2CE2D Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Part.001" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Part.001" Content-Description: HPGL Graphic PCFET0NUWVBFIEhUTUwgUFVCTElDICItLy9XM0MvL0RURCBXMyBIVE1MLy9FTiI+DQo8SFRNTD4N CjxIRUFEPg0KDQo8TUVUQSBjb250ZW50PXRleHQvaHRtbDtjaGFyc2V0PWlzby04ODU5LTEgaHR0 cC1lcXVpdj1Db250ZW50LVR5cGU+DQo8TUVUQSBjb250ZW50PSciTVNIVE1MIDQuNzIuMjEwNi42 IicgbmFtZT1HRU5FUkFUT1I+DQo8L0hFQUQ+DQo8Qk9EWSBiZ0NvbG9yPSNlMGUwZDA+DQo8RElW PkdycnJyZWF0ITxCUj48L0RJVj4NCjxESVY+Jm5ic3A7PC9ESVY+DQo8RElWPlBsZWFzZSBSZWFk 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c3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7IA0KPEJS PjxCUj4mbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJz cDsmbmJzcDsgDQo8QlI+PC9ESVY+PC9CT0RZPjwvSFRNTD4NCg== - --=_1E4A925F.C3A2CE2D-- - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 98 07:48:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: VPC: Giant Assault Weapon Loophole - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:14:32 -0500 From: believer@telepath.com To: ignition-point@majordomo.pobox.com Subject: IP: VPC: Giant Assault Weapon Loophole Source: US Newswire http://www.usnewswire.com/topnews/Current_Releases/0721-123.txt VPC Releases Gun Industry Ads Exposing Assault Weapon Loophole U.S. Newswire 21 Jul 16:06 VPC Releases Gun Industry Ads Exposing Giant Assault Weapon Loophole To: National Desk Contact: Bill McGeveran of the Violence Policy Center, 202-822-8200, ext. 105 WASHINGTON, July 21 /U.S. Newswire/ -- The Violence Policy Center (VPC) today released a package of gun industry advertisements showing how high-capacity magazines -- which were outlawed under the 1994 assault weapons ban -- are still being sold legally because of a loophole in the law. Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) has announced that she will offer an amendment on the Senate floor Wednesday to close the loophole. The ads expose 10 of the numerous companies that still sell high-capacity "killer clips" by taking advantage of the 1994 law's "grandfather clause," which allows the sale of millions of magazines made before the ban took effect. These magazines are compatible with many semiautomatic firearms designed both before and after 1994, allowing them to fire more than 10 rounds without reloading. "This grandfather clause is a high-capacity loophole," said VPC Director of Federal Policy Kristen Rand. "Just put an old magazine on a new gun and -- voila! -- you beat the ban. You can have an assault weapon that is very lethal, but perfectly legal." One company has even taken the sale of killer clips a step further, the VPC ads demonstrate. Intratec, which once made the banned TEC-9 assault pistol, now sells a very similar weapon called the AB-10. The new gun is constructed with grandfathered TEC-9 magazines that can fire 32 shots without reloading. Feinstein's amendment, which she plans to offer to the Commerce/Justice/State Appropriations bill, would close the killer clip loophole by amending the assault weapons ban to prohibit the transfer or sale of grandfathered magazines. - ------ Journalists who would like copies of the advertisements can call Bill McGeveran at 202-822-8200, ext. 105, or Carolyn Puglia at 202-822-8200, ext. 106. - ------ The Violence Policy Center is a national non-profit educational organization that examines the role of firearms in America, conducts research on firearms violence, and works to decrease firearm-related death and injury. - -0- /U.S. Newswire 202-347-2770/ 07/21 16:06 Copyright 1998, U.S. Newswire - ----------------------- NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml - ----------------------- ****************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo@majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email@address ****************************************** www.telepath.com/believer ****************************************** - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 98 07:48:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: YOUR RIGHT OF SELF-DEFENSE - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 00:33:15 -0700 From: Ed Wolfe To: pi@involved.com Subject: YOUR RIGHT OF SELF-DEFENSE Why do I feel like I'm posting something seditious? Seems weird to have Supreme Court citations that back our natural rights and common sense. IANAL, but these seem very logical to me. -E.W. YOUR RIGHT OF SELF-DEFENSE "Citizens may resist UNLAWFUL arrest to the point of taking an arresting officer's life if necessary." PLUMMER V. STATE, 136 Ind. 306. This premise was upheld by the SUPREME COURT of the United States in the case: JOHN BAD ELK V. U.S., 177 U.S. 529. The Court stated: "Where the officer is killed in the course of the disorder which naturally accompanies an attempted arrest that is resisted, the law looks with very different eyes upon the transaction, when the officer had the right to make the arrest, from what it does if the officer had no right. What may be murder in the first case might be nothing more than manslaughter in the other, or the facts might show that no offense had been committed." "An arrest made with a defective warrant, or one issued without affidavit, or one that fails to allege a crime is within jurisdiction, and one who is being arrested, may resist arrest and break away. lf the arresting officer is killed by one who is so resisting, the killing will be no more than an involuntary manslaughter." HOUSH V. PEOPLE, 75 111. 491; reaffirmed and quoted in State v. Leach, 7 Conn. 452; State v. Gleason, 32 Kan. 245; Ballard v. State, 43 Ohio 349; State v Rousseau, 241 P. 2d 447; State v. Spaulding, 34 Minn. 3621. "When a person, being without fault, is in a place where he has a right to be, is violently assaulted, he may, without retreating, repel by force, and if, in the reasonable exercise of his right of self defense, his assailant is killed, he is justiciable." RUNYAN v. STATE, 57 Ind. 80; Miller v. State, 74 Ind. 1. "These principles apply as well to an officer attempting to make an arrest, who abuses his authority and transcends the bounds thereof by the use of unnecessary force and violence, as they do to a private individual who unlawfully uses such force and violence." JONES v. STATE, 26 Tex. App. I; Beaverts v. State, 4 Tex. App. 1 75; Skidmore v. State, 43 Tex. 93, 903. Citizen Dei Gratia Sovereign Citizen Resource Center - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:47:57 -0600 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: Long John Silver's Update Received: from wvc ([204.246.130.34]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:15:38 -0600 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA23940; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:04:50 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id MAA28351; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:13:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:13:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma028174; Thu Jul 23 12:10:40 1998 Message-Id: Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: KGrubb@carnival.com Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk From: "Grubb, Ken" To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Long John Silver's Update X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I received the following Email from Long John Silver's. Either they were spooked by my Email, a mass of Emails, I'm getting the bedbug letter, or this is an honest reply from Long John Silver's. If anyone lives in or around the Franklin, PA area, or will soon be passing through, please check in with the Long John Silver's to see that the offending sticker has been or will be removed. Ken Grubb Miami, FL > -----Original Message----- > From: bhinton@ljsilvers.com [SMTP:bhinton@ljsilvers.com] > Sent: Thursday, July 23, 1998 8:49 AM > To: kgrubb@carnival.com > Cc: cmccormi@ljsilvers.com; dballato@ljsilvers.com; > dcorneli@ljsilvers.com > Subject: Firearms >=20 > Thank you for taking the time to submit your comments via our web > site. At > one time, Long John Silver's updated a sticker regarding security, > fire, > burglary and cash deposits and included a statement about concealed > weapons. The concealed weapons statement was included without proper > corporate authorization and subsequently we removed it from our > policies > and instructed our managers to replace the sticker with a new one. > Perhaps > our manager in Franklin did not follow our instruction. We have no > such > policy regarding concealed weapons and rely upon local laws to govern > this > issue. By copy of this email, I will instruct our management team to > comply > with our corporate direction, i.e. local laws govern the issue of > concealed > weapons. Again, thanks for your concern and consideration. >=20 - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:15:32 -0600 From: "David Sagers" Subject: The Militia, is it the National Guard? This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to properly handle MIME multipart messages. - --=_AAFE25CB.ED8CE00C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline pa-rkba-digest Thursday, July 23 1998 Volume 01 : Number = 1146 - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:24:05 -0400 From: "Masly, John R." Subject: RE: PA-RKBA! Letter from PRNJ > From: William M. Shadle[SMTP:bshadle@paonline.com]=20 > >ASBURY PARK PRESS Tuesday 7/21/98 > >'Militia' means National Guard > >It never ceases to amaze me just how ignorant most of us are when it > comes to > >the U.S. Constitution, in general, and the Bill of Rights,=20 >=20 I also sent a letter this morning. I hope they get deluged with similar letters. John Masly > ********************************************************************** >=20 >=20 > To Whom it May Concern: I offer the following response for > publication. > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 > 23 July 1998 >=20 > It's too bad that Wm. C. Heyer ("Militia means National Guard", Asbury > Park Press, 21 July 1998) slept through whatever history or civics > classes he had in school, otherwise he might have learned something of > real value. >=20 > True, the state's National Guard are 'militia', but they are only a > part of what the government defines as 'militia'. According to 10 USC > 311 (this is LAW, Mr. Heyer, not opinion), ALL males between the ages > of 17 and 45 are part of the unorganized 'militia'; the state's > National Guards are a subset of this population, called the 'organized > militia'.=20 >=20 Then, after engaging in some childish name calling, Mr. Heyer wishes we could 'dig up' the Founding fathers to find out what they really meant by the Second Amendment. Well, since we won't benefit from disinterring their bodies, let us disinter what they wrote on the subject. "Arms in the hands of the Citizens may be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self defense." - John Adams "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." - Thomas Jefferson "Militias, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves and include all men capable of bearing arms." - Richard Henry Lee "The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun." - Patrick Henry "The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword, because the whole of the people are armed.." - Noah Webster And finally, a somewhat long passage from THE Father of the country, "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty, teeth and keystone under independence...From the hour the pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurrences and tendencies prove that, to ensure peace, security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable. Every corner of this land knows firearms, and more than 99 and 99/100 percent of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil influence. They deserve a place of honor with all that's good. When firearms go, all goes. We need them every hour." - George Washington (Address to the 2nd session of the First US Congress) I could go on in this manner for quite some time, but now is the time for action on your part, Mr. Heyer. Push yourself away from your TV, where the media talking heads spoon feed you misinformation in neat little sound bites, get some books, and actually learn the history of your country and it's government. I would suggest you start by reading the Constitution itself, then The Federalist Papers and Anti-Federalist Papers. But, since this course of action requires personal effort and cognitive abilities, it is not likely to happen, is it? John Masly LTC EN USAR (Ret) Saylorsburg, PA =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D - - --------------------------- The Constitution of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania guarantees your right to bear arms in Article 1 Section 21: "The right of Citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned." To unsubscribe to this list, send a message to majordomo@listbox.com with the words: unsubscribe pa-rkba in the body of the message. H Howard Lewis Bloom takes no responsibility for the content of the = message as this is an unmoderated list. ***All Rights Reserved*** - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:22:48 -0400 From: David Kleber Subject: Re: PA-RKBA! Letter from PRNJ Bill, By an amazing coincedence, I just finished transcribing the statements relative to the militia, standing army and right to keep and bear arms from the states' ratification conventions. Here's what I have (did you get your info from the two volume set entitled "The Debate on the Constition" as well?): Ratification of the Constituion by the Convention of the State of New York=20 (adopted Fed 6 - Aug 2, 1788) That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well regulated militia, including the body of the people capable of bearing arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state. That the militia should not be subject to martial law except in = time of war, rebellion or insurrection. That standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to liberty, = and ought not be be kept up, except in cases of neccessity, and that at all times the military should be under strict subordination to the civil power. New Hampshire June 21, 1788 That no standing army shall be kept up in time of peace, unless = with the consent of three-quarters of the members of each branch of Congress - - -- nor shall soldiers in time of peace be quartered upon private houses, without the consent of the owners. Congress shall never disarm any citizen, unless such as are or = have been in actual rebellion. Maryland April 28, 1788 That no standing army shall be kept up in time of peace, unless with the consent of three-quarters of the members of each branch of Congress; nor shall soldiers in time of peace be quartered upon private houses, without the consent of the owners. Militia not to be subject to the rules of Congress, nor marched = out of the state, without consent of the legislature of such state. South Carolina May 23, 1788 That the people have a right to keep and bear arms: that a well regulated militia composed of the body of the people trained to arms, is the proper, natural and safe defence of a free state. That standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to libery, and therefore ought to be avoided, as far as the circumstances and protection of the community will admit; and that in all cases, the miltary should be under strict subordination to and governed by the civil power. North Carolina August 2, 1788 That the people have a right to keep and bear arms: that a well regulated militia conposed of the bedy of the people trained to arms, is the proper, natural and safe defence of a free state. That standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to libery, and therefore ought to be avoided, as far as the circumstances and protection of the community will admit; and that in all cases, the miltary should be under strict subordination to and governed by the civil power. - ---------------------------------------- - --=_AAFE25CB.ED8CE00C Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: from wvc ([204.246.130.34]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:17:55 -0600 Received: from listbox.com by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA24068; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:07:06 -0600 Received: (qmail 32333 invoked by uid 516); 23 Jul 1998 18:16:44 -0000 Delivered-To: pa-rkba-digest@majordomo.pobox.com Date: 23 Jul 1998 18:16:44 -0000 Message-ID: <19980723181644.32330.qmail@listbox.com> From: owner-pa-rkba-digest@majordomo.pobox.com (pa-rkba-digest) To: pa-rkba-digest@majordomo.pobox.com Subject: pa-rkba-digest V1 #1146 Reply-To: pa-rkba@listbox.com Sender: owner-pa-rkba-digest@majordomo.pobox.com Errors-To: owner-pa-rkba-digest@majordomo.pobox.com Precedence: first-class Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline pa-rkba-digest Thursday, July 23 1998 Volume 01 : Number = 1146 - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:24:05 -0400 From: "Masly, John R." Subject: RE: PA-RKBA! Letter from PRNJ > From: William M. Shadle[SMTP:bshadle@paonline.com] > >ASBURY PARK PRESS Tuesday 7/21/98 > >'Militia' means National Guard > >It never ceases to amaze me just how ignorant most of us are when it > comes to > >the U.S. Constitution, in general, and the Bill of Rights,=20 >=20 I also sent a letter this morning. I hope they get deluged with similar letters. John Masly > ********************************************************************** >=20 >=20 > To Whom it May Concern: I offer the following response for > publication. > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 > 23 July 1998 >=20 > It's too bad that Wm. C. Heyer ("Militia means National Guard", Asbury > Park Press, 21 July 1998) slept through whatever history or civics > classes he had in school, otherwise he might have learned something of > real value. >=20 > True, the state's National Guard are 'militia', but they are only a > part of what the government defines as 'militia'. According to 10 USC > 311 (this is LAW, Mr. Heyer, not opinion), ALL males between the ages > of 17 and 45 are part of the unorganized 'militia'; the state's > National Guards are a subset of this population, called the 'organized > militia'.=20 >=20 Then, after engaging in some childish name calling, Mr. Heyer wishes we could 'dig up' the Founding fathers to find out what they really meant by the Second Amendment. Well, since we won't benefit from disinterring their bodies, let us disinter what they wrote on the subject. "Arms in the hands of the Citizens may be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self defense." - John Adams "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." - Thomas Jefferson "Militias, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves and include all men capable of bearing arms." - Richard Henry Lee "The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun." - Patrick Henry "The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword, because the whole of the people are armed.." - Noah Webster And finally, a somewhat long passage from THE Father of the country, "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty, teeth and keystone under independence...From the hour the pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurrences and tendencies prove that, to ensure peace, security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable. Every corner of this land knows firearms, and more than 99 and 99/100 percent of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil influence. They deserve a place of honor with all that's good. When firearms go, all goes. We need them every hour." - George Washington (Address to the 2nd session of the First US Congress) I could go on in this manner for quite some time, but now is the time for action on your part, Mr. Heyer. Push yourself away from your TV, where the media talking heads spoon feed you misinformation in neat little sound bites, get some books, and actually learn the history of your country and it's government. I would suggest you start by reading the Constitution itself, then The Federalist Papers and Anti-Federalist Papers. But, since this course of action requires personal effort and cognitive abilities, it is not likely to happen, is it? John Masly LTC EN USAR (Ret) Saylorsburg, PA =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D - - --------------------------- The Constitution of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania guarantees your right to bear arms in Article 1 Section 21: "The right of Citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned." To unsubscribe to this list, send a message to majordomo@listbox.com with the words: unsubscribe pa-rkba in the body of the message. H Howard Lewis Bloom takes no responsibility for the content of the = message as this is an unmoderated list. ***All Rights Reserved*** - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:22:48 -0400 From: David Kleber Subject: Re: PA-RKBA! Letter from PRNJ Bill, By an amazing coincedence, I just finished transcribing the statements relative to the militia, standing army and right to keep and bear arms from the states' ratification conventions. Here's what I have (did you get your info from the two volume set entitled "The Debate on the Constition" as well?): Ratification of the Constituion by the Convention of the State of New York=20 (adopted Fed 6 - Aug 2, 1788) That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well regulated militia, including the body of the people capable of bearing arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state. That the militia should not be subject to martial law except in = time of war, rebellion or insurrection. That standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to liberty, = and ought not be be kept up, except in cases of neccessity, and that at all times the military should be under strict subordination to the civil power. New Hampshire June 21, 1788 That no standing army shall be kept up in time of peace, unless = with the consent of three-quarters of the members of each branch of Congress - - -- nor shall soldiers in time of peace be quartered upon private houses, without the consent of the owners. Congress shall never disarm any citizen, unless such as are or = have been in actual rebellion. Maryland April 28, 1788 That no standing army shall be kept up in time of peace, unless with the consent of three-quarters of the members of each branch of Congress; nor shall soldiers in time of peace be quartered upon private houses, without the consent of the owners. Militia not to be subject to the rules of Congress, nor marched = out of the state, without consent of the legislature of such state. South Carolina May 23, 1788 That the people have a right to keep and bear arms: that a well regulated militia composed of the body of the people trained to arms, is the proper, natural and safe defence of a free state. That standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to libery, and therefore ought to be avoided, as far as the circumstances and protection of the community will admit; and that in all cases, the miltary should be under strict subordination to and governed by the civil power. North Carolina August 2, 1788 That the people have a right to keep and bear arms: that a well regulated militia conposed of the bedy of the people trained to arms, is the proper, natural and safe defence of a free state. That standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to libery, and therefore ought to be avoided, as far as the circumstances and protection of the community will admit; and that in all cases, the miltary should be under strict subordination to and governed by the civil power. - - -Dave http://www.city-net.com/~davekle/ William M. Shadle wrote: >=20 > >ASBURY PARK PRESS Tuesday 7/21/98 > > > >'Militia' means National Guard > > > >It never ceases to amaze me just how ignorant most of us are when it = comes to > >the U.S. Constitution, in general, and the Bill of Rights, >=20 > The following letter was sent this morning: >=20 > ********************************************************************** >=20 > Dear Editor: >=20 > Mr. Heyer, in his July 21 letter decries our ignorance of the Constitutio= n > and Bill of Rights. He wishes we could "dig up" James Madison to ask = him > what he and the other founding fathers had in mind when creating the = Bill > of Rights. >=20 > We don't need to "dig up" anyone. All Mr. Heyer needs to do is "dig up" > the reference books that already record the words of our founding = fathers. >=20 > During the ratification debate in Pennsylvania, and prior to the = inclusion > of the Bill of Rights, Robert Whitehill offers the amendment, "That the > people have a right to bear arms for the defense of themselves and their > own state, or the United States, or for the purpose of killing game;" >=20 > The ratification by New York recommended inclusion of the provision, = "That > the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well regulated > militia, including the body of the people capable of bearing arms, is = the > proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state." >=20 > Maryland's ratification resolution recommended, "Congress shall never > disarm any citizen, unless such as are or have been in actual rebellion."= >=20 > Both Virginia's and North Carolina's resolutions stated, "That the = people > have a right to keep and bear arms:" >=20 > James Madison himself criticized "the several kingdoms of Europe" where > "the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." >=20 > George Mason, the 'father of the Bill of Rights' was quoted as saying "I > ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few > public officials." >=20 > None other than George Washington stated "[f]irearms are second only to = the > Constitution in importance; they are the people's liberty's teeth." >=20 > Thomas Jefferson, a towering figure in American history said "[n]o free = man > shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the = people > to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to = protect > themselves against tyranny in government." >=20 > And that fiery orator, Patrick Henry shouted "[a]re we at last brought = to > such humiliating and debasing degradation that we cannot be trusted with > arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms = in > possession and under our direction, and having them under the management = of > Congress? If our > defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they = be > trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own = hands?" >=20 > By asserting that the Second Amendment of the U.S. Constitution refers = only > to the states' right to organize a militia, Mr. Heyer shows anyone = familiar > with history that he has not so much as cracked the spine of a history > textbook. >=20 > The only merit in his letter is when he states, "I have the feeling that > what they wrought, and what most of us take for granted, are not the = same > thing." > Oh how true. >=20 > Sincerely, >=20 > Bill Shadle > Myerstown, PA - - --------------------------- The Constitution of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania guarantees your right to bear arms in Article 1 Section 21: "The right of Citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned." To unsubscribe to this list, send a message to majordomo@listbox.com with the words: unsubscribe pa-rkba in the body of the message. H Howard Lewis Bloom takes no responsibility for the content of the = message as this is an unmoderated list. ***All Rights Reserved*** - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:52:30 -0400 From: globallaw@tidalwave.net Subject: PA-RKBA! Letter to Pollsters This unscientific poll is less horrendous than the rest. But at this early hour it appears that anti-gunners are getting spanked. RV http://www.openpoll.com/cgi/openpoll.pl?poll=3D0216&results=3Don 07/23/98 There were 98 respondents. Description=20 Question 1=20 The United States Senate just defeated a bill that would have required handguns to be equipped with trigger locks. Do [you] support the idea of requiring trigger locks on all handguns manufactured in the U.S.?=20 Definitely Agree: 2%=20 Probably of Agree: 0%=20 Not Sure: 1%=20 Probably of Disagree: 2%=20 Definitely Disagree: 95% [my 2 cents:] "A system of licensing and registration, is the perfect device to deny gun ownership to the bourgeoisie." --V.I. Lenin=20 "Then Jesus said to them...the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one." -- Luke 22:35-38=20 Jesus wanted his disciples to be armed. Lenin, Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mussolini and others of their kind (such as in Red China, Rwanda and Algeria) hated guns. Tyrants and criminals prefer unarmed victims.=20 This translates into hundreds slaughtered at Tianemin [phonetic] by a government who had ALL the guns, thousands in Algeria and Rwanda have had their throats slit or hacked to death because the people had NO guns.=20 POINT: the Attackers were safe.=20 The Turks slaughtered about 1.5 Armenians, and Pol Pot about the same number of Cambodians. American Indians were at a decided disadvantage when only the cowboys and cavalry had guns. The Germans, 11 million, Soviets at least 68 million and the same for the Red Chinese. Do you start to see a trend? Does the author of this poll and others like it realize that none of this is ancient history? Have you pollsters looked into the historical after effects of banning guns from the law-abiding, assuming the "law" comports to the=20 Constitution? I don't think we are getting through to you. I don't think you have read any history, ancient or recent. Nor have you paid attention to the sharp declines in violent crime ACROSS THE BOARD wherever Right-to-Carry reform has been enacted. Nor have you paid attention to the glaring fact that of the top six murder capitals of the United States, FIVE ALL HAVE HAD LONG-STANDING GUN BANS (NYC, DC, LA, Chicago & Baltimore). Congratulations. That effect may not be what you intended, but anyone with common sense could have figured that out thousands of murders, rapes and violent assaults ago. There is stupidity. And criminal stupidity. If you want to make society safer - keep arms in the hands of the citizen, and let criminals and government fear them -- not the other way around. - - --------------------------- The Constitution of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania guarantees your right to bear arms in Article 1 Section 21: "The right of Citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned." To unsubscribe to this list, send a message to majordomo@listbox.com with the words: unsubscribe pa-rkba in the body of the message. H Howard Lewis Bloom takes no responsibility for the content of the = message as this is an unmoderated list. ***All Rights Reserved*** - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:15:42 -0400 From: "Chris BeHanna" Subject: Re: PA-RKBA! dumbed guns On 23 Jul 98 at 10:20, chairman@GunsSaveLives.com =20 wrote: > Is there a realistic chance the "smart gun" law will get anywhere in PA? Lord, I hope not. The State Police don't want it, so that's a BIG nail in the coffin, but we have to make sure that the idiots from = the=20 cities don't amend the bill to make an exception just for them, then = shove=20 it down the rest of our throats. > that would be ironic with Metaksa campaigning for Ridge so hard. Wouldn't it, though? Note that the first warning about this came from GOA, not NRA-ILA. I don't recall seeing a peep about it from ILA=20 within the last couple of days. Regards, Chris BeHanna NJ-RKBA List Administrator PGP 2.6.1 public key available behanna@syl.nj.nec.com kore wa NEC no iken de gozaimasen. http://www.users.fast.net/~behanna= Lon Horiuchi, give yourself up! Gun control is the rapist's greatest = ally GUNS SAVE LIVES - - --------------------------- The Constitution of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania guarantees your right to bear arms in Article 1 Section 21: "The right of Citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned." To unsubscribe to this list, send a message to majordomo@listbox.com with the words: unsubscribe pa-rkba in the body of the message. H Howard Lewis Bloom takes no responsibility for the content of the = message as this is an unmoderated list. ***All Rights Reserved*** - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:35:12 EDT From: Subject: Re: PA-RKBA! GSL> PA HANDGUN BAN! In a message dated 7/23/98 4:30:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PUBLIUS69@aol.= com writes: > BELOW IS AN ALERT CONCERNING "SMART GUNS" IN PA! THIS IS THE SAME=20 > LEGISLATION > RECENTLY INTRODUCED IN NEW JERSEY BY SENATORS CODEY AND PALAIA FOR HCI, = AND > KILLED BY CNJS! DOES ANYONE KNOW, PRAY TELL, WHICH GUN MAKER IS = WORKING ON > SUCH A GUN THAT WOULD BE LEGAL UNDER SUCH LEGISLATION? > =20 Colts. Look at the crap written by Mr. Stewart, Colts' owner. I won't repeat the stuff about the political campaigns to which he contributes. Ward W. Fetrow, III - - --------------------------- The Constitution of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania guarantees your right to bear arms in Article 1 Section 21: "The right of Citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned." To unsubscribe to this list, send a message to majordomo@listbox.com with the words: unsubscribe pa-rkba in the body of the message. H Howard Lewis Bloom takes no responsibility for the content of the = message as this is an unmoderated list. ***All Rights Reserved*** - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:58:22 -0400 From: "William M. Shadle" Subject: Re: PA-RKBA! Letter from PRNJ >By an amazing coincedence, I just finished transcribing the statements >relative to the militia, standing army and right to keep and bear arms >from the states' ratification conventions. > >Here's what I have (did you get your info from the two volume set >entitled "The Debate on the Constition" as well?): Yep... The best money I ever spent. Just wish it were available on = CD/ROM and fully searchable. The index is good, but takes a while to pull references. I missed a couple you included in your list. Bill Shadle Myerstown, PA "I fear for my country when I reflect that God is just." T. Jefferson - - --------------------------- The Constitution of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania guarantees your right to bear arms in Article 1 Section 21: "The right of Citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned." To unsubscribe to this list, send a message to majordomo@listbox.com with the words: unsubscribe pa-rkba in the body of the message. H Howard Lewis Bloom takes no responsibility for the content of the = message as this is an unmoderated list. ***All Rights Reserved*** - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:11:29 -0400 From: David Kleber Subject: Re: PA-RKBA! Letter from PRNJ William M. Shadle wrote: >=20 > >By an amazing coincedence, I just finished transcribing the statements > >relative to the militia, standing army and right to keep and bear arms > >from the states' ratification conventions. > > > >Here's what I have (did you get your info from the two volume set > >entitled "The Debate on the Constition" as well?): >=20 > Yep... The best money I ever spent. =20 Me, too (except for my $89 SKS). >Just wish it were available on CD/ROM > and fully searchable. =20 I absolutely agree. Man, it would be great to be able to do a key word search through that bad boy. That would save tons of time. =20 > The index is good, but takes a while to pull > references. I missed a couple you included in your list. http://www.city-net.com/~davekle/ - - --------------------------- The Constitution of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania guarantees your right to bear arms in Article 1 Section 21: "The right of Citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned." To unsubscribe to this list, send a message to majordomo@listbox.com with the words: unsubscribe pa-rkba in the body of the message. H Howard Lewis Bloom takes no responsibility for the content of the = message as this is an unmoderated list. ***All Rights Reserved*** - ------------------------------ End of pa-rkba-digest V1 #1146 ****************************** - --=_AAFE25CB.ED8CE00C-- - - ------------------------------ End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #89 **********************************