From: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com (utah-firearms-digest) To: utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: utah-firearms-digest V2 #90 Reply-To: utah-firearms-digest Sender: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk utah-firearms-digest Tuesday, July 28 1998 Volume 02 : Number 090 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:16:04 -0600 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Another Gun poll Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:52:30 -0400 From: globallaw@tidalwave.net=20 Subject: PA-RKBA! Letter to Pollsters This unscientific poll is less horrendous than the rest. But at this early hour it appears that anti-gunners are getting spanked. RV http://www.openpoll.com/cgi/openpoll.pl?poll=3D0216&results=3Don=20 07/23/98 There were 98 respondents. Description=20 Question 1=20 The United States Senate just defeated a bill that would have required handguns to be equipped with trigger locks. Do [you] support the idea of requiring trigger locks on all handguns manufactured in the U.S.?=20 Definitely Agree: 2%=20 Probably of Agree: 0%=20 Not Sure: 1%=20 Probably of Disagree: 2%=20 Definitely Disagree: 95% [my 2 cents:] "A system of licensing and registration, is the perfect device to deny gun ownership to the bourgeoisie." --V.I. Lenin=20 "Then Jesus said to them...the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one." -- Luke 22:35-38=20 Jesus wanted his disciples to be armed. Lenin, Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mussolini and others of their kind (such as in Red China, Rwanda and Algeria) hated guns. Tyrants and criminals prefer unarmed victims.=20 This translates into hundreds slaughtered at Tianemin [phonetic] by a government who had ALL the guns, thousands in Algeria and Rwanda have had their throats slit or hacked to death because the people had NO guns.=20 POINT: the Attackers were safe.=20 The Turks slaughtered about 1.5 Armenians, and Pol Pot about the same number of Cambodians. American Indians were at a decided disadvantage when only the cowboys and cavalry had guns. The Germans, 11 million, Soviets at least 68 million and the same for the Red Chinese. Do you start to see a trend? Does the author of this poll and others like it realize that none of this is ancient history? Have you pollsters looked into the historical after effects of banning guns from the law-abiding, assuming the "law" comports to the=20 Constitution? I don't think we are getting through to you. I don't think you have read any history, ancient or recent. Nor have you paid attention to the sharp declines in violent crime ACROSS THE BOARD wherever Right-to-Carry reform has been enacted. Nor have you paid attention to the glaring fact that of the top six murder capitals of the United States, FIVE ALL HAVE HAD LONG-STANDING GUN BANS (NYC, DC, LA, Chicago & Baltimore). Congratulations. That effect may not be what you intended, but anyone with common sense could have figured that out thousands of murders, rapes and violent assaults ago. There is stupidity. And criminal stupidity. If you want to make society safer - keep arms in the hands of the citizen, and let criminals and government fear them -- not the other way around. - - --------------------------- The Constitution of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania guarantees your right to bear arms in Article 1 Section 21: "The right of Citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned." To unsubscribe to this list, send a message to majordomo@listbox.com with the words: unsubscribe pa-rkba in the body of the message. H Howard Lewis Bloom takes no responsibility for the content of the = message as this is an unmoderated list. ***All Rights Reserved*** - ------------------------------ - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:38:15 -0600 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: Welcome once again! Received: from kendaco.telebyte.com ([206.53.160.3]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:19:07 -0600 Received: (from mail@localhost) by kendaco.telebyte.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA10213; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:20:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: kendaco.telebyte.com: mail set sender to NRA-ILA-EVC-owner@kendaco.telebyte.com using -f Received: from arl-img-9.compuserve.com (arl-img-9.compuserve.com [149.174.217.139]) by kendaco.telebyte.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA10209 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:19:58 -0700 Received: (from root@localhost) by arl-img-9.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.12) id QAA02667 for NRA-ILA-EVC@kendaco.telebyte.com; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:16:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:15:53 -0400 From: David Adams Subject: Welcome once again! To: "INTERNET:NRA-ILA-EVC@kendaco.telebyte.com" Message-ID: <199807231616_MC2-5405-94C8@compuserve.com> Reply-To: NRA-ILA-EVC@kendaco.telebyte.com Sender: NRA-ILA-EVC-owner@kendaco.telebyte.com Precedence: list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Did not know if you were aware that the Durbin Amendment (S. Amdt. 3260) to the State-Justice-Commerce Appropriations bill (S. 2260) was defeated yesterday by a vote of 69 - 31 (Vote Number 224). This is the amendment that would have made the victim of a burglery, when the item stolen was a firearm, criminally liable. Instead, Senator Craig's amendment (S. Amdt. 3261) was approved on a voice vote. This amendment expands the test program to combat youth crime that NRA President Charlton Heston proposed and was later agreed to by the City of Philadelphia. Add these victories to the repeal of the Gun Tax and insuring the FBI destroys all records of gun sales associated with the National Instant Check System (NICS) and we can celebrate what has been a great week for = gun owners. But, we must keep up the presure to make sure our victories ( removal of the gun tax, and immediate distruction of records relating to the NICS) are not removed when the bill goes to conference. David Adams NRA-ILA EVC Virginia 7th District NRA Second Amendment Task Force Member wingedmonkey@compuserve.com http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/8358/ ****Owning a firearm is a RIGHT, not a privilege**** The NRA ILA EVC closed mailing list is NOT an=20 official list of the NRA, but is offered as=20 a tool by Jim Kendall (WA-1st District EVC) and Telebyte NW. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send an email request to=20 NRA-1st@telebyte.com *********** Victory 1998! *************** - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:41:33 EDT From: Subject: New AZ Proposed Non-Resident Permit Regulations Contact Governor Jane Hull The Governor's office is located in the Executive Tower at 1700 W. Washington in Phoenix. The full mailing address is: The Honorable Jane Hull Governor of Arizona 1700 West Washington Phoenix, Arizona 85007 Telephone 602-542-4331 Fax 602-542-7601 Click here to send E-mail to Governor Hull. azgov@gv.state.az.us Due to the research required to answer your e-mail, please include your full name and regular mailing address, and a reply will be sent to you by regular mail ===================================== Here is my letter to Gov. Hull. Please feel free to write to her and pick parts of my letter as a starting point. All that I ask is that it not be copied and used as a form letter. That will only minimize the value of each letter. I sent mine via both e-mail and fax. It is important that we all write to the AZ Gov. ASAP so that these regs do not get put into place. These regs will make it all, but impossible for most nonresidents to get AZ CCW permits until after we get back from AZ. ===================================== Dear Gov. Hull, I want to thank you for signing the bill that reforms the AZ Concealed Weapons Law to allow nonresidents to obtain permits and for reciprocity of permits. A new issue has now come up regarding that law. It appears that in the new DPS regulations, they will be prohibiting the mandated training from being conducted by nonresidents or from being conducted outside of AZ. I fully understand the DPS reasoning for this. They are understaffed (and underpaid) and overworked. They lack the resources to monitor the existing training programs to the degree that they feel that is necessary. They have a desire to maintain the highest degree of integrity in the firearms training program and believe that they will have even less control over programs conducted out of state. Again, this is a legitimate concern. The DPS personnel are of the highest integrity and are pure of heart in their motivations. As a fellow police officer (I speak only for myself here and not in any official capacity), I truly empathize with them. However, the effect of this proposed implementing regulations is to almost nullify the law as passed by the legislature and signed by you. I believe that the unintended consequences are that the clear legislative intent is subverted. The only people who will be able to get AZ Concealed Weapons Permits will be those who live near enough to AZ to travel there to receive the mandated training. For those folks who live great distances, it makes no sense to travel to AZ on a business trip or vacation and then to extend one's trip to take the DPS certified training program. What sense does it make to receive the AZ permit in the mail several months after visiting AZ? Clearly, a visitor wants to obtain a permit before coming to AZ. Under the proposed rules that cannot happen. There is also an economic effect upon AZ. The State will lose out on the direct revenues that would be paid to it by nonresident applicants for instructor certifications and permits. Another economic effect is the indirect loss of tax revenue to the State from all of those people who do not visit your state because they traveled to another state, such as UT, that did not discourage them from protecting themselves. There has been a campaign in both the firearms and police communities to "vacation where you can carry." These proposed regulations will not get AZ off of the "no-go" list for most people. It may be argued that many people will be allowed to carry in AZ under the reciprocity provision in the law. If history is any indicator, this will not be the case. Other states with almost identical legislative language as yours took years to establish any reciprocity at all. The discretionary nature inherent in the subjective legal language "substantially similar" is all to often interpreted as "identical or more restrictive." Additionally, reciprocity takes time to implement and requires that it be a two-way street. In the real world, this is one limitation, compounding another limitation, compounded by another limitation. This is not a blanket recognition of out of state permits and licenses as we do with driver licenses (and many states do with Concealed Weapons Permits). Other states, including your neighboring State of Utah, have no geographical limitations on where the mandated firearms training occurs. There is no ill effect. The standards that an instructor has to meet in order to be certified are already high enough to meet the legitimate interests of the people of AZ. Additionally, if DPS is not currently staffed adequately to monitor the existing AZ firearms instructors, what difference does it then make if they certify out-of-state firearms training? There will be no difference. Why then make the regulation at all? Why then deny the AZ Treasury the added revenues provided by many nonresident applicants when this revenue can then be used to fund additional DPS jobs? Perhaps this revenue can then fund DPS so that they can provide increased supervision over the firearms training program. Nonresidents are the best permit holders. They provide the same per capita revenue to the state, yet require less per capita expenditure of state resources. Don't take my word for it. Just ask the FL Secretary of State (the issuing authority for FL Concealed Weapons Licenses). Thank you for your anticipated cooperation in this matter. Godspeed, J. R. Lynch - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 18:27:54 -0600 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: You Have the Right! Received: from wvc ([204.246.130.34]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:45:08 -0600 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA24314; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:34:18 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id TAA04640; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 19:43:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 19:43:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma004515; Thu Jul 23 19:42:12 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980723191001.0079d7d0@riverview.net> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: 2a.rkba@riverview.net Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk From: KaBoom <2a.rkba@riverview.net> To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: When confronted ba a criminal, you're back on the frontier X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline When confronted by a criminal, you're back on U.S. frontier By Charley Reese Commentary=20 Published in The Orlando Sentinel, July 19, 1998=20 The easiest way to resolve, in your own mind, the gun-control debate is to take this little test.=20 1. Do you believe that you have a right to live?=20 2. Do you believe that your spouse and children have a right to live?=20 3. If someone is threatening to kill you and your family, do you think that you have a right to defend yourself?=20 That's the objective, yes-or-no part of the quiz. Now here is one final essay question:=20 How will you defend yourself and your family if you are confronted by an armed intruder or intruders?=20 You could call 911 unless, as often happens these days, the intruders have taken the trouble to cut your telephone wires before they kick your door down. But if you did get the call off, you still have a problem:=20 The intruders are there in your house, and the police aren't.=20 The sad fact is that, because of logistics, police can't protect you. In more than 99 percent of the cases, by the time the police even get called - -- and certainly by the time they arrive -- the crime has already been committed.=20 The hard truth is that, when you are confronted by a criminal, you're in the same situation today you would have been in if you had lived alone on an isolated ranch on the American frontier. There's nobody at the dance = but you and the criminal. You have to fight. You win, you live; you lose, you die. Simple as that. No alternative unless you want to depend on your begging and some thug's mercy. But in serious encounters, by the time the cavalry gets there, there will be dead and wounded lying around. The question you have to answer is: Do you want to be among the dead or among the living?=20 Now you may suppose that you are a glib talker and when some crack-crazed thug sticks a gun in your face, you can reason with him. That's a very far-fetchedsupposition. I would bet on the thug. Any honest street cop will tell you that the predators roaming today are far more dangerous than even mob hit men of the past. The hit men would never kill without a reason. Today's thugs kill on a whim for no rational reason at all. And many of them will kill everyone there, including babies and children.=20 The neo-totalitarians -- sometimes known as the gun-control crowd -- will repeat the big lie that a gun kept for self-protection is more likely to injure you or your family than a criminal. The flawed study that is based on as discredited years ago.=20 If you take a gun to a gunfight, you may not win; if you don't, you will surely lose. Credible studies by respected scholars with no bias show what common sense tells you -- that thousands of Americans every day save themselves from criminal harm by using a firearm, most of the time without having to shoot.=20 To me, there is no more outrageous insult or bigger example of stupidity than a government that is such a gross failure at preventing criminal, armed attacks on the population that it would take the position that the answer is to disarm the future victims. I take it as a given that any politician who proposes to deny honest people the means to defend their lives and the lives of their children is too evil or too stupid to = tolerate in public office.=20 Some guy once wrote that a characteristic of Southerners is that they take things personally. I know that's true in my case. When I hear some politician talk gun control, I think, ``You (expletive deleted), you're endangering my children.''=20 You have a right to own a firearm. Don't let anyone take that right away from you. Use it. - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:14:41 -0600 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: July 24 column - White House bunker Received: from wvc ([204.246.130.34]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 21:53:28 -0600 Received: from ez0.ezlink.com by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id VAA24469; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 21:42:32 -0600 Received: (from list@localhost) by ez0.ezlink.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA00213; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 21:52:52 -0600 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 21:52:52 -0600 X-Sender: vin@dali.lvrj.com Message-Id: Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 19:45:20 -0800 To: cathy@engr.colostate.edu From: Vin_Suprynowicz@lvrj.com (Vin Suprynowicz) Subject: July 24 column - White House bunker Resent-Message-ID: <"TtpUB.0.D1.LJ0kr"@ez0.ezlink.com> Resent-From: vinsends@ezlink.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/522 X-Loop: vinsends@ezlink.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vinsends-request@ezlink.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE DATED JULY 29, 1998 THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz Defending the bunker President Clinton's spin team has spent most of the past year whimpering that Special Prosecutor Kenneth Starr's probe of White House wrongdoing has cost too much and gone on too long. As usual, truthseekers should pay close attention to the proverbial "dog that doesn't bark." First, the president's apologists refrain from = actually contending he's innocent, preferring to concentrate on procedural smoke grenades. Second, they neglect to mention that if the president really wanted to save everyone time and money, he could simply stroll down to Mr. Starr's office at 9 a.m. any weekday, volunteering to tell the whole truth under oath, from his late nights with Monica to the Chinese and Indonesian campaign cash, and publicly asking or ordering everyone else to do the same. End of impasse. The fellow can't be re-elected. If he has done nothing impeachable, why not 'fess up to whatever he (start ital)has(end ital) done -- however unseemly -- and let everyone move on? On the bright side, up till now the courts have been admirably firm in rebuffing every new doctrine of secrecy and obfuscation this desperate White House has dreamed up. Unfortunately, that appeared to change this week. Chief U.S.. District Judge Norma Holloway Johnson has now apparently agreed to allow lawyers for the president and for First Paramour Monica Lewinsky to question members of Mr. Starr's prosecution team, probing whether the prosecutors improperly leaked confidential grand jury information to the press. Note again: if the truth tended to confirm the president's story, why would anyone object to said truth being "leaked"? (No one has claimed the prosecutors spread any (start ital)mis(end ital)-information.) If the recollections of the Secret Service men tended to bear out the president's innocence, why would the president's own champions bemoan the bodyguards being called to testify "against" him? The new pro-Clinton magazine Brill's Content last month reported that = Mr. Starr had acknowledged he and his top deputy sometimes briefed selected reporters to "correct misinformation." In response, Mr. Starr replied that his office does not release grand jury material "directly or indirectly, = on the record or off the record." This is yet another fishing expedition to find out what prosecutors = have, to turn the tables, to delay, delay, delay. Imagine any other federal defendant whimpering that prosecutors were "leaking" bad things about him. Prosecutors frequently call press conferences to brag about having arrested dangerous militia zealots bent = on poisoning the populace, or "organized crime bosses" responsible for = endless catalogs of felonies ... long before the accused has any chance to present a defense. In most such cases, private defendants plead out -- because legal fees are bankrupting their families. So prosecutors -- the kind who answer to Mr. Clinton and his assistant Miss Janet, She-Wolf of the ATF -- rarely have to prove the truth of all their dramatic press conference rhetoric. And even if they do get to court and it turns out half their TV scare stories were hot air ... so what? It's "all in the performance of his lawful duty," you see. Perhaps Judge Johnson wants to show she will bend over backward to be fair to the White House. Fine. But would she prove equally willing to = allow attorneys for the Viper Militia, or the survivors of the Branch Davidian massacre, to cross-examine federal agents and prosecutors under oath about how their cases may have been prejudiced when (start ital)those(end ital) agents lied on search warrant affidavits, or when (start ital)those(end ital) prosecutors spun tall tails to the newshounds, alleging child abuse and clandestine methamphetamine labs and bomb plots and cellars full of heavy machine guns which the government was never able to demonstrate at trial? No. Today's delicate objections are given credence only because the suspect is the president. Mr. Clinton thus further squanders the prestige of his office to bring about the very expense and delay that his Peanut Gallery pretend to abhor. The current goal? Keep the balls in the air past the November elections, = of course. Siege warfare is seldom exciting, but its results are highly predictable.= It is the defense which always retains the option of negotiating terms, before every loyal defender is slaughtered, every battlement toppled. Compassionate leaders, after putting up enough resistance to satisfy appearances, will often spare their followers such horrors. In this case, it begins to look like we face another one of those characters who's willing to toss his own friends into the breach, one by one, to buy first one more day, and then another ... till nothing remains but the bullet and the bunker. Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at vin@lvrj.com. The = web site for the Suprynowicz column is at http://www.nguworld.com/vindex/. The column is syndicated in the United States and Canada via Mountain Media Syndications, P.O. Box 4422, Las Vegas Nev. 89127. *** Vin Suprynowicz, vin@lvrj.com "The right of self-defense is the first law of nature; in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and when the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction." -- Henry St. George Tucker, in Blackstone's 1768 "Commentaries on the Laws of England." - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jul 98 20:41:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Hysteria, or reasoned response? - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 01:09:09 -0400 From: "John A. Quayle" Re: Why is the IRS arming? Date: 98-07-24 08:01:14 EDT From: acolesanti@flinet.com (Andrew Colesanti) URGENT ALERT FOR THOSE FEW WHO WANT TO SAVE FREEDOM! REPOST FAR AND WIDE Americans MUST be ALARMED on this ARMING of IRS AGENTS and E.O. 13083 which will suspend the 10th Amendment, by August 13th 1998! "THEN TERROR SHALL TRULY REIGN" Let's look at some facts as to what has them doing these EVIL DEEDS! I will touch upon the Lopez Decision (Gun Free School Zones) 26 April 95. In an Unanimous Decision, "The Supreme Court decided that CONGRESS VIOLATED the 10th Amendment by passing such legislation (GUN FREE ZONES) and further the Commerce Clause that the so-called FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES used to justify their authority to operate, in FACT did not afford them any authority to operate"! SO! THIS OUTRAGEOUS GUN FREE ZONE LAW WAS SQUASHED! Then SLICK WILLIE in grand fashion while debating with Dole, on national TV kept stating the Gun Free School Zones are established to protect the children, all the while knowing THE SUPREME COURT had threw out the law as Un-Constitutional. I waited and watched to see what he and his groupies would do! They changed a few words then attached it to another bill, which made it THE LAW AGAIN! Again more research has uncovered the fact, that a person can use DEADLY FORCE upon any person to include LAW ENFORCEMENT personnel, who are violating the person's Constitutional and or Civil Rights. Many Court Cases bring this out in the open, (I posted these court decisions with SAFAN last year, if I remember correctly)! Today you millions if not billions of dollars spent to hunt down and kill (by suicide in many cases) people who are alleged to have killed Law Enforcement personnel. Mind you these people who are hunted down, are not given their day in court, you must ask yourself why? With the expenditure of the vast amounts of our tax dollars going to this endeavor, you hear your local law enforcement complain they do not have the funds needed to take care of all the other real problems. "I am amazed that the people are so dumbed down by this fraud"! One thing though LAW ENFORCEMENT has achieved, is bestowing FEAR and TERROR upon the people, with the people paying the bill!!!!!!!! Not a bad deal for L.E.! This document is not intended to condemn all LAW ENFORCEMENT, as there are still some (few in numbers) who even know what the Constitution is, and know the CRIME of CONSTRUCTIVE FRAUD DESIGNED TO DO AWAY WITH This Once Great Nation of America!!!!!!!!!!!! Now to the issue of arming IRS AGENCY PERSONNEL. First off, my belief is all people have the right to arm themselves for protection! An IRS AGENT in the performance of their duties, in most cases VIOLATE Constitutional and Civil law and rights of the people. Now the fact that a person can use deadly force upon an AGENT violating their Constitutional and or Civil Rights, shows the AGENT (BY CHOICE) has chosen an unhealthy type of work! "THE IRS, SHOULD BE DISSOLVED"!!! The CLINTON EXECUTIVE ORDER 13083 will REVOKE The 10th Amendment of The U.S. Constitution on August 13th 1998. ARE YOU GETTING THIS? "CONGRESS (which no longer represents the people) VIOLATED the 10th Amendment by implementing GUN FREE ZONES, and the "Commerce Clause" which FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT claim gives them the AUTHORITY to operate, IN FACT DOES NOT"!!!! "Now what are you America, going to do about it, or has THE NEW SELF-PROCLAIMED GOD OF EARTH, CLINTON put you into TOTAL COWARDICE" ????????????????????? ALL of you people collecting PENSIONS, COMPENSATION, or other types of funding, better think of investing in TANGIBLE GOODS for barter. Stock up on, food, medical supplies, fuel, a good weapon, ammunition, reloading components, before it is too late! My belief is, "THE PEOPLE WILL RISE TO THE OCCASION, AND TAKE BACK THE FREEDOMS THAT HAVE BEEN ELIMINATED BY THOSE WHO OPPRESS" Andrew Stephen Colesanti A real man, an American and National of The New Republic of Florida Subj: CONNECT THE DOTS..... Date: 98-07-21 16:21:07 EDT From: DotHB To: DotHB CONNECT THE DOTS......... One Message NEVER tells the entire story - just remember what you read yesterday....and DO something about it!!!! - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Jul 98 07:54:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Time resets "gun poll" - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 09:11:29 -0400 From: "Mark A. Smith" To: SNET , PRJ , L & J Cc: Richard Biondi Subject: Coming soon: "The Third way" Heads Up A Weekly View from the Foothills of Appalachia July 26, 1998 #95 by: Doug Fiedor fiedor19@eos.net - ------------------------------- Previous Editions at: http://www.uhuh.com/headsup.htm and http://mmc.cns.net/headsup.html - ------------------------------- Time reset the "gun poll" they have been running for the past month. Apparently, they were unhappy with the real view of the American public. So, let's give it to them again. Vote early and vote often. http://www.pathfinder.com/time/polls/gunpoll.html - --- þ SPEED 2.00 [NR] þ - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:50:47 -0600 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: FBI Turns in False Report of Terrorism Received: from vader.thnet.com ([206.98.115.1]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 04:19:26 -0600 Received: from bruce9.thnet.com (bruce9.thnet.com [206.98.115.109]) by vader.thnet.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA13233; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 05:09:47 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199807271009.FAA13233@vader.thnet.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Distribution" Organization: The Vigo Examiner To: Distribution@vader.thnet.com Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 04:59:59 +0000 Subject: FBI Turns in False Report of Terrorism Reply-to: Distribution@Vigo-Examiner.com Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline FBI Turns in False Report of Terrorism by NATHAN ANDERSON Nathan@Vigo-Examiner.com The Vigo Examiner Charging Mark Koernke with urging his radio listeners during a July 2nd broadcast to shoot federal prosecutor Lloyd Meyer, the FBI arrested = him for "Terrorism." But when a tape of that program is replayed, Koernke is heard instead saying of Lloyd Meyer simply "this is a guy we should remember." Bond was lowered from $500,000 to $100,000 after the prosecutor in = the case admitted he had used a false report of grenades in Koernke's possession to gain the higher bond. Koernke was subsequently arraigned without his attorney, Mr. Vincent, who had not been notified of the arraignment. The FBI has a policy of never admitting to an error. This came to light after the FBI framed Richard Jewell in the Olympic Park bombing in Atlanta. But as in that case, there are questions as to whether it was in fact an error, or simply a deliberate false report. When the FBI sent the Hostage Rescue Team to kill the Weaver family in Idaho in 1993, they = issued several deliberately false stories describing the plywood shack as a hardened bunker surrounded by mine fields. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= http://www.Vigo-Examiner.com TEXT VERSION Enjoy a free 90 day trial subscription to The Vigo Examiner. You will receive one to three of our top articles each day. =20 Send your subscription request, and all other communication to Editor@Vigo-Examiner.com. - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:53:31 -0600 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: Rambo Uber Alles? Received: from vader.thnet.com ([206.98.115.1]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 05:43:45 -0600 Received: from bruce18.thnet.com (bruce18.thnet.com [206.98.115.118]) by vader.thnet.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA01982; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 06:32:58 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199807261132.GAA01982@vader.thnet.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Distribution" Organization: The Vigo Examiner To: Distribution@vader.thnet.com Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 06:23:13 +0000 Subject: Rambo Uber Alles? Reply-to: Distribution@Vigo-Examiner.com Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline GUEST EDITORIAL Rambo Uber Alles? by TINA TERRY mtterry@goodnet.com We recently received a true gem of sinister absurdity (that's a wonderful combo of adjectives and nouns, isn't it?) from a libertarian organization called the Advocates for Self Government. Here's what we were informed. It seems that Sylvester Stallone, a.k.a. Rambo, a.k.a. Rocky, the star of numerous tough-guy, big/bare pectoral and large-caliber gun-laden movies, has called loudly and earnestly for an immediate rescinding of the Second Amendment to the Bill of Rights, and has further urged the federal government to send its agents door-to-door throughout the land of the free and the home of the brave, forcefully confiscating all handguns in = America. Sig Heil! Herr Rambo Here's where it gets really good, folks. Advocates for Self Government informs us that a gentleman named Jim Ray from Miami has sent them "the rest of the story." According to Mr. Ray, it seems that Stallone is = selling his Miami residence. (He's taken up residence in Merry Olde England, you know.) Mr. Ray is quoted as saying, " "The house he (Stallone) wants to sell -and in which he just feted President Lippo last night at $500.00 a plate to benefit the Democrats - in Miami has on its grounds -- you = guessed it -- a gun range. I hear it's a nice one, underground even. "Add this to the always-bulging gun-hypocrisy files." This story is so outrageously hypocritical that in a strange way it's almost laughable. (So I'm weird. But I found myself snickering nastily = when I read it, as I realized that this is yet another example of the glaring fact that neither mammoth wads o' cash nor a Hollywood image with guaranteed national and international box-office cachet can buy intelligence or integrity if one is lacking either or both.) Oh Rocky, oh Rambo, oh slimy Sly - how forked is thy tongue? I hereby call upon all red-blooded and freedom-loving Americans to BOYCOTT Stallone, the treacherous socialist hypocrite, and all his works, to shun anything to do with him, to call for a revocation of his American citizenship, to condemn him to eternal exile from these hallowed shores, and to tell him to keep his dyed hair, (hey, you think we didn't notice?) his pumped-up, oily pecs and his goose-stepping, Gestapo ego in jolly old England, where Her Majesty's bobbies have already gone door to door and seized the guns, as per the urgings of Herr Stallone. What a consummate commie creep! Too bad the custom of clapping people like him into the stocks isn't in vogue anymore. My sole comfort (aside from = the fact that the First Amendment permits me to freely vilify and scorn Mr. Rambo Mega-Weenie publicly like this) is that I am sure there must be a special place reserved for him in hell, right next to his obvious idols, Hitler, Mao Tse Tung, Stalin, Pol Pot and other "great leaders," all of whom so efficiently and forcefully implemented upon their people his repulsive and repressive disarmament scheme. Copyright (C) 1998, Tina Terry - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= http://www.Vigo-Examiner.com TEXT VERSION Enjoy a free 90 day trial subscription to The Vigo Examiner. You will receive one to three of our top articles each day. =20 Send your subscription request, and all other communication to Editor@Vigo-Examiner.com. - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 98 23:00:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Interesting Questions......(fwd) - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 17:58:18 -0400 From: "John A. Quayle" IS FEDERAL GOVERNMENT BEHIND CAPITOL SHOOTING? by James Kelley (badsheep@hotmail.com) The curious thing is that these shots were allegedly fired *inside* the Capitol. How the hell did this guy get in there with a gun? ALL Federal office buildings have metal detectors and paranoid gung-ho gaurds who are just aching to arrest a "gun-wielding maniac." SO - why didn't they stop him? We all know Congress exempts itself from any law they don't like, but I hardly think they would exempt themselves from this one - after all, this is just the sort of thing those metal detectors are supposed to prevent, and Congress critters are notorious for cowardice. Are you thinking what I'm thinking? It is entirely plausible that this dude was *PROGRAMMED* to commit this insane act, and for obvious reasons: what better way to convince the American People that guns should be totally banned? What more justification does Clinton need for his declaration of Martial Law? Nobody could be persuaded to do something like this for any kind of material reward: it would be obvious to anyone that he would be locked up forever or executed. Instead, the guy would have to have been given a post-hypnotic suggestion. This is well within the abilities of the secret American government - CIA, NSA, etc. Also, consider that the NSA has a history of placing their personnel in positions where they pretend to be just regular employees and *not* NSA agents. I refer to the Pueblo Incident, when North Korea captured the USS Pueblo and imprisoned its crew. Several officers aboard were actually NSA agents, and their job was to *ENSURE* the capture so a secret coding device could also be captured. The NSA *wanted* the Soviets to get this device, so messages could be sent which the USSR would be sure to intercept. Thus the NSA could "dis-inform" the USSR about all sorts of things. They're *sneaky* bastards - sneakiness is their specialty. Could the NSA have replaced the Capitol guards with their own men and instructed them to let this guy through? Sounds plausible to me. LOTS of crazy things do, these days. Please spread this around to your e-mail lists for discussion. Sadly, Jim Kelley JIM - I was on CNN (most of the time) watching the story as it unfolded. I put out a message with all that I had around 4 P.M. All they said that there was shooting in the rotunda. I am amazed at the number of different stories they put out and are actually continuing to put out on the various aspects of this story. Makes you wonder if the media just makes things up - or if they are being fed the stories from various PR people in the government. Whichever it is - not much probably matches the REAL true story. IMHO. Dot Bibee. - - ------------------------------ End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #90 **********************************