From: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com (utah-firearms-digest) To: utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: utah-firearms-digest V2 #91 Reply-To: utah-firearms-digest Sender: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk utah-firearms-digest Wednesday, July 29 1998 Volume 02 : Number 091 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 27 Jul 98 23:00:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Letter to Charley Reese on Gun Control 2/2 Because of this horrid and indelible experience, and of my interest in and undying loyalty to the American Bill of Rights, I have made it my business to study the history of the Second Amendment, and of related topics, such as police responsibility to citizens. It is my belief that many people believe that disarmament is no big deal, because it is the job of the police to protect us. Besides the excellent points you drove home in your commentary, the following facts are also important: 1. The police have no compelled legal duty to protect individual citizens, and cannot be held responsible if they fail to do so. Even if one does get through with one's 911 telephone call, if the police simply choose not to show up, one has no legal recourse against the police. The courts have repeatedly ruled on this. (See Bowers v. DeVito, 686 F 2d 616 (7th Cir. 1982) in which the court stated: "There is no constitutional right to be protected by the state against being murdered by criminals or madmen. It is monstrous if the state fails to protect its residents against such predators but does not violate the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, or, we suppose, any other provision of the Constitution. The Constitution is a charter of negative liberties: it tells the state to let the people alone; it does not require the federal government or the state to provide services, even so elementary a service as maintaining law and order." See also South v. Maryland, U.S. Supreme Court 1856.) 2. The police carry guns primarily to defend THEMSELVES, not to protect us. 3. Because of items 1 and 2 above, we should all consider the police to be, essentially, historians, e.g. they show up AFTER the crime has been committed and attempt to reconstruct and document the history of the crime. Then, if history is satisfactorily re-constructed, the perpetrator is apprehended (if he can be found) and then (perhaps) prosecuted. This does little good to those who are dead or wounded as a result of actions of the perpetrator of the crime. I also believe in putting my money where my mouth is. I am a supporting member of Gun Owners of America, which provides an excellent e-mail and fax alert concerning Second Amendment legislation (see www.gunowners.org) and I also support what I believe to be the most impeccable research organization concerning the Second Amendment: Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership (JPFO.) JPFO also has a web site which I encourage you to visit: http//:www.JPFO.org. JPFO's exhaustive research has clearly shown that government registration of guns and disarmament of its citizens is almost always a precursor to genocide, and they cite case after case in which this has happened around the world, including of course, Nazi Germany. Not only Hitler, but also Mao Tse Tung, Stalin, and Pol Pot all disarmed their populations before committing mass murders upon their own people. See the JPFO book "Lethal Laws." JPFO has also done historical research which reveals that the 1938 Nazi Weapons Law was the foundation for the wording of our own American Gun Control Act of 1968, and have even reprinted both laws side by side so that one can compare the eerie similarities in wording in their book "Gun Control: Gateway to Tyranny." They have further documented that Connecticut Senator Thomas Dodd (the father of Senator Chris Dodd) who wrote the American Gun Control Act, requested and obtained a translated copy of the 1938 Nazi Weapons Act before he held hearings on bills "To Require the Registration of Firearms," "To Disarm Lawless Persons" and "To Provide for the Establishment of a National Firearms Registry," (all factors of the 1938 Nazi law) among others, before being instumental in helping to write and pass the American Gun Control Act of 1968. Now that's really something for us Americans to be proud of, isn't it? Although there are many issues of concern in today's roiling political and social stew, I believe that the issue of the preservation and restoration of the Bill of Rights in general and of the Second Amendment in particular is the most pivotal and basic issue to all Americans, even if they don't yet know it. I hope that your efforts, mine, and the efforts of others will help to wake people up before it's too late, and we lose the last remaining shreds of that precious Bill which the Founding Fathers gave us to shield ourselves against government tyranny. Anyone who thinks the Bill of Rights is either "out of date," "hokey" or "needs revising" - all of which I've heard from well-meaning but tragically ignorant and complacent Americans - should try living in a country which doesn't have one. Been there, done that, don't want to go through it ever again - especially not in my own native nation. Today's government nanny has too often in history turned into tomorrow's government despot. Tina Terry 405-C South Beeline Highway Payson, Arizona 85541 mtterry@goodnet.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 98 23:00:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Letter to Charley Reese on Gun Control 1/2 - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:54:35 -0400 From: Patricia Neill To: jdinardo@idt.NET Subject: Letter to Charley Reese on Gun Control Letter to Charley Reese on Gun Control Orlando Sentinel by Tina Terry (c) 1998 Dear Mr. Reese, Using the miracle of e-mail, a friend of mine forwarded to me your excellent column regarding our needing to resist the idiot and corrupt politicians who are trying to disarm us, and to thus render us and our families completely defenseless. I am in the unique position of having already lived through such a government-instigated disarmament of the general public, and its subsequent, disastrous consequences: From 1961 to 1977 my father (who is American, as are my mother, sister and I) was stationed with his family and business in Kingston, Jamaica. Around 1972, the political situation in Jamaica had so seriously deteriorated that there were constant shootings and gun battles throughout the city of Kingston, and many of the outlying parrishes (ie., counties.) Whereas in years past no one had even had to lock their doors, now one hardly dared venture out of one's home, especially if one was white, and even more especially if one was an American, for fear of being gunned down. My father took his life into his hands every morning simply driving to work. Going to the market or to do a simple errand was a terrifying prospect. The bald hatred and hostility which we had directed at us seemed ready at any time to explode into violence. The Jamaican government decided that the only solution to this volatile situation was to declare martial law overnight, and to demand that all guns and bullets owned by anyone but the police be immediately (within 24 hours) turned into the police; anyone caught with as little as one bullet would then be immediately, and without trial, incarcerated in what was essentially a barbed-wire enclosed concentration camp (they called it "the gun court") which had been speedily erected in the middle of Kingston. My father and all of our American, British and European friends, as well as middle class Jamaicans of all colors, knew that we were sitting ducks for this kind of draconian government punishment (we white Americans knew that we in particular were mightily hated by the average Jamaican-in-the-street, due to the relentless anti-American propaganda spewed forth by the at-that-time Jamaican Prime Minister, Michael Manley, whose stated goal was to emulate Fidel Castro of Cuba, our nearest neighbor.) So obviously we dutifully and immediately disarmed ourselves, and handed our weapons in at the nearest police station. It was either that or be sent straight to the gun court... and even after we had disarmed ourselves we lived in deathly fear that the cops, not known for their integrity, and well-known for their hatred of whites and Americans, would see fit to plant a gun or bullet on our property. So there we all were - government-disarmed, sitting-duck, law-abiding citizens and expatriates. I'm sure you can guess what happened next: the rampant carnage began in earnest. Robberies, kidnappings, murders, burglaries, rapes - - all committed by still-armed criminals, who were positively ecstatic that the government had been so helpful in creating all these juicy and utterly defenseless victims. You've heard the phrase, "When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns." I can tell you, that's exactly how this government disarmament worked. I was, at the time, away at boarding school in the United States. However, I remember vividly coming home for the summer. I remember the terror which constantly permeated our household, including the loyal black servants who worked for and lived with us, and whom we took care of. I remember lying awake in bed at night, clutching the handle of an ice-pick I had put under my pillow, and listening to the screaming of car-loads of Jamaican gangs going by our house, praying that they wouldn't pick our home to plunder. The favorite tactic was for them to roar up to the house, pile out, batter down the door and rape, steal, kill, kidnap... whatever they felt like. They knew the inhabitants had been disarmed, and that they would be met with only terror and helplessness. My pathetic ice-pick seemed incredibly puny, but it was all I could think of. My family lost eleven friends within the space of about a year, and it is a miracle that we are all still alive. I am convinced that many of the people we knew who were murdered, raped, kidnapped and robbed would not have been victims had they not been disarmed by the government, which, incidentally, had presented this whole disarmament program to us as: "We're here to help you, and this is for your own good and safety." [ Continued In Next Message... ] - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 98 23:00:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Effectively Disarming America - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 01:37:04 -0700 From: Ed Wolfe To: garden@netside.com This is a scary thought that I excerpted from a post to misc.survivalism. along with my reply. -Ed jed martin wrote: [snip] > also, the government doesn't have to go house to house to collect > guns either. All they have to do is start a "guns for food" program, > and they will probably get most of them, and a few more with the > "snitch for food" program. Well, you just ruined some of my peace of mind. ;) I've always wondered how the government might think it could fully suppress a country with approximately 100 million gun owners and God knows how many guns and rifles. You just answered that question. Any situation that stops food distribution to the masses can be used to easily implement a gov't feeding program, supposing our gov't has enough food for all the survivors. In order to sign up for the emergency ration program to feed your starving children, the cost is to turn over all of your weapons so the gov't can move forward with their efforts to stabilize the country and be assured that [fill in the blank] doesn't happen again so that we can solve this problem of gun violence once and for all. I guess that would work to get a lot of the guns in this country out of the hands of Joe Sixpack leaving only the most "extreme" of us left with our arms. Greatly improves the government's odds of winning a civil war type scenario, doesn't it? Once they've unarmed the masses, that will leave only those who were prepared ahead of time to survive and those that have always known how to provide for themselves. Now, someone do me a favor and convince me that this isn't the plan. Ed - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 98 06:13:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: CNN GUN POLL --- GO VOTE: - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 19:10:23 -0700 From: American Patriot Friends Network To: "\"APFN\"" CNN GUN POLL --- GO VOTE: http://www.pathfinder.com/time/polls/gunpoll.html Gun Poll Results COVER: Still Under the Gun 1. Do you own a gun? CHARLTON HESTON: 60.11% Yes No More Mister Nice Guy 39.88% No CONCEALED 2. Should the U.S. have stricter gun WEAPONS: control laws? Should You 2.33% Yes Carry a Gun? 51.87% No LITIGATION: How to Take 3. Do you believe that allowing people Guns to Court to carry concealed weapons reduces crime? KIDS WHO KILL: When Boys Go Bad 94.98% Yes 5.01% No TIME/YAHOO! 4. Do you believe that U.S. cities should CHAT: sue gun manufacturers to recoup money Talk with John spent dealing with gun-related crime? Lott, Jr., author of More Guns, Less 0.50% Yes Crime, and a representative 99.49% No from Handgun 5. How would you rate the effectiveness Control, Inc. of the Brady Bill and the assault-weapons Wed., July 1, ban in preventing the illegal use and 8pm ET/5pm PT distribution of guns? BULLETIN BOARD: 0.14% Very effective Whether pro-NRA, 1.13% Somewhat effective pro-gun control, 2.83% Somewhat ineffective or somewhere in 94.21% Not at all effective between, here's the place to 1.67% Don't know express yourself about the role of guns in America. Total Votes Cast: 6175 Results updated every few seconds. Posted: June 29, 1998 THE REASON FOR THE SECOND AMENDMENT IS TO PROTECT THE FIRST AMENDMENT! UNITED NATIONS GUN CONTROL http://www.un.org/Depts/dda/Firstcom/SGreport52/a52298.html http://www.un.org/Depts/dda/Firstcom/SGreport52/a52229.html http://www.un.org/Depts/dda/Firstcom/SGreport52/a52264.html - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 98 07:58:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: ALL MUST READ!!!!!!! - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 07:32:13 -0700 To: NWPR32A@PRODIGY.COM From: Kepi (by way of mel's fern ) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 18:35:22 -0500 Subject: ALL MUST READ!!!!!!! From: vigilanty@juno.com (James Bond) THE VIGILANT EXPRESS complies with the First Amendment of the Constitution of the united States of America and Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107 of the United States. However, THE VIGILANT EXPRESS complies first with the Word of God and bows before no one else except the almighty. Rev. 1:3, 1 Peter 4, Deut 7, Isaiah 53:5, Ps.20:6, Mark 11:24, Lam. 3:22, Rom. 1:18, Rom.14:23, Joshua 24:15 - --------- Begin forwarded message ---------- Jews For The Preservation of Firearms Ownership, Inc. Aaron Zelman - Executive Director 2874 So. Wentworth Ave. Milwaukee, WI 53207 Ph. (414) 769-0760 Fax (414) 483-8435 http://www.JPFO.org Against-Genocide@JPFO.org 07/25/98 - -------- D.C. Shooting - Worthless "Gun Control" laws FAIL AGAIN by Richard Stevens JPFO Firearms Sentinel Editor Charging through a metal detector and shooting two Capitol police officers, a killer invaded the Capitol building on Friday afternoon, July 24, 1998, with apparent intent to harm a political leader in the building. As the killer used a firearm to kill the officers, we can expect renewed calls for more "gun control." Defenders of the right to keep and bear arms must be ready. This particular murderous attack teaches some valuable lessons. First, the attack demonstrated that "gun control" laws do not prevent crime. The attacker carried a concealed firearm in a federal building in Washington, D.C. and later discharged it there. He therefore violated several federal and local (D.C.) firearms laws, as well as laws against assault, battery, and homicide. The laws did not stop a determined killer. Second, the attack showed how important it is to have an armed defense against aggressors. The Capitol attacker was able to kill and injure far fewer persons than did the young teenage school boys in Jonesboro. What was the difference? The Capitol attacker charged into a building where the defenders were armed. The Jonesboro killers fired on unarmed and undefended victims. Go to http://www.jpfo.org/gckids.htm Go to http://www.jpfo.org/school.htm After killing several persons and injuring dozens more, the Jonesboro killers escaped without injury to themselves. The Capitol attacker, however, was injured when one of his victims (before dying) shot back. The Jonesboro school victims died undefended. The Capitol attacker's intended victim (as yet unknown), was defended and suffered no injury whatsoever. Third, the Capitol attack proved again that the mere presence of armed police and metal detectors will not deter some aggressors. Some particularly dedicated, fanatical, or psychotic killers will attack innocent people, regardless of the risks of criminal prosecution or death. These killers can only be stopped by superior force, and sometimes even the police cannot deploy sufficient force to prevent all injuries and deaths. If police officers cannot guarantee protection even to themselves in a well-defended Capitol building, then they surely cannot guarantee protection to ordinary citizens in ordinary homes. The police owe no legal duty to protect individual citizens; their job is only to protect society in general. If you face a threat of attack by a deranged and murderous aggressor, then trading your gun for a telephone to dial "9-1-1" is to surrender to the killer. Go to http://www.jpfo.org/Dial911.htm JPFO mourns the deaths of the two Capitol police officers who died in the line of duty. They gave up their lives to defend innocent people against a murderous attacker. No more noble sacrifice of life is possible. JPFO offers its heartfelt condolences to the families of those officers, who themselves will suffer their personal loss forever. Words and feelings cannot reverse the officers' families' pain and suffering. The "gun control" lobby, however, will likely use this incident to launch a campaign to disarm and thereby leave completely defenseless other innocent persons. Don't allow the gun prohibition rhetoric to go unchallenged -- answer the newspaper editorials in your town, and call into talk shows. You could save a life -- possibly your own. - -------------------- To become a JPFO member, go to: http://www.jpfo.org/member.htm There you will see a printable member application, along with info on membership. If you wish, you can become a member using our on-line application as well. Membership IS open to ALL Law abiding citizens. **************************************************************** Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership (JPFO) Chris W. Stark - Director of Electronic Communications 2874 So. Wentworth Ave. Milwaukee, WI 53207 Ph. (414) 769-0760 Fax (414) 483-8435 Against-Genocide@JPFO.org Visit our Web Page at: http://www.JPFO.org MEMBERSHIP IS OPEN TO ALL LAW ABIDING CITIZENS. "America's Most Aggressive Defender of Firearms Ownership." "If you don't support JPFO, then WHY support ANYONE?" **************************************************************** Copyright (c) 1998, JPFO Republication permitted provided this article & attribution is left intact in its original state. **************************************************************** - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 98 18:05:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Capitol Shooter:Govt agent or lone nut? 1/2 - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Joe L Jordan [mailto:"powstryk@flash.net"@flash.net] Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 1998 2:26 AM To: Kawaja@NC.tds.net Cc: HKSTRUNK@AOL.COM; eagleflt@eagleflt.com; powstryk@flash.net; RUSSBACHER@AOL.COM; fjc@gte.net; fjc@gte.net; pggk94a@prodigy.com; elvis@FREEWWWEB.COM; Crimmins, Ken; copyplus@copyplus.net; Callendar, Al; philoctates@webtv.net; vardonkl@yahoo.com; spiker@amnix.com Subject: Capitol Shooter:Govt agent or lone nut? Once again the mountain of dead bodies around Clinton grows larger. Can all of them possibly be the ridiculous array of suicides and accidental deaths the mainstream media newsfakers and white house spin doctors claim? Let's look at some known facts and wander into some wild supposition. What is known: 1. Several times during the Clinton years, news stories appear at very convenient times. Unabomber was arrested within two hours of the news of Ron Brown plane crash. OKC bombing was 48 hours after a secret indictment of Hillary had been handed down. It disappeared. Clinton gets a subpoena on the lewinsky oral office scandal and the capitol gets shot up. The OKC bombing has been compared to the burning of the Reichstag. If the assassination of De Lay had been successful, it would have been compared to the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand. Coincidence? You tell me. 2. Always pay careful attention to the first 15 minutes of reportage while the announcers are caught off guard and are preening for a pulitzer. They at first said perimeter security for the capitol had completely broken down and armed men were running amok in the halls. Why was sergeant giving press conferences when Capitol police lts and capts with scrambled eggs on their caps remained silent in the background? If this was a confirmed lone nut, why then did we see a cop motioning children to leave while he was hunkered down with pistol drawn behind a car? 3. Gun-grabbing U>S> Do you suppose De Lay has been sufficiently warned not to reveal whatever it was? c. Weston used his dad's .38 revolver to commit all this carnage. Witnesses heard 20 shots. What's wrong with this picture? Who were the other shooters? Can mortally wounded men reload 3 times? If Weston wanted to do the job right he would at least have had a silencer. Notice no detailed maps of his route on TV. d. US Govt is quoted as saying he was on the Secret Service watch list for writing threatening letters to Clinton and Gore. Who do you know who has done this that is not now currently in jail? He is not in the NCIC data base as a convicted felon. Where are they getting this stuff? Making it up? What's the real agenda? Who's pulling the strings? How can Weston's bullets kill while the cops guns only wound? Dum-Dums? Cop-Killers? Special loads supplied by the CIA or FBI. Remember, he was after somebody who had to be dropped. e. Now for the really good stuff. i. My sources tell me that Weston was recruited by the FBI to go to Montana and infiltrate Militia Groups. He was allegedly trained for this work at a secret FBI facility at Crete, IL. The mainstream media reported that Weston visited Washington DC and put in job applications at several federal agencies including the CIA. ii. If let's say the CIA wanted a Lee Harvey Oswald style patsy who would they choose. Perhaps a slightly retarded loser and malcontent who could be easily duped into believing he was only participating in a "Test of Security" at the capitol. Was he a manchurian candidate? When he triggered the metal detector, could a microchip in his butt or neck been coded to set him off? iii. Was this a failed attempted coup d'etat of the Governmentt of the United States? Wouldn't De Lay been one of a list of top ten govt officials who would have to be killed or jailed. What did Admiral Boorda, CIA Director Colby and the generals and NSA officials killed in Alabama on a lear jet crash know about Clinton's deals with Red China? Why is the media saying it is Russia leaking nuclear secrets and equipment to India, Pakistan, Iraq and Iran when in fact it is from Israeli Nuclear Command at Dimona selling devices we gave them. Like all the other deaths around Clinton, there are more questions than answers. I encourage discourse on the matter. Prove to me why I am wandering down too many blind alleys. Joe L. Jordan Executive Director National Vietnam POW Strike Force [ Continued In Next Message... ] - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 98 18:05:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Capitol Shooter:Govt agent or lone nut? 2/2 Forward via: APFN@netbox.com "Americans have an automatic responsibility to rebel against authority when that authority is mindless." Newt Gingrich, 23 July 1998, at the Young America Foundation Conference "The most effective way of making people accept the validity of the values they are to serve is to persuade them that they are really the same as those which they...have always held, but which were not properly understood or recognized before. And the most efficient technique to this end is to use the old words but change their meaning. Few traits of totalitarian regimes are at the same time so confusing to the superficial observer and yet so characteristic of the whole intellectual climate as the complete perversion of language, the change of meaning of the words by which the ideals of the new regimes are expressed." - -- F. A. Hayek "We have this day restored the Sovereign, to whom alone men ought to be obedient. He reigns in Heaven, and from the rising to the setting sun, may His Kingdom come!" Samuel Adams, August 1, 1776 LETTER RE: Capital Shooting Coverage On Saturday you ran two reports on the shooting in the Capital Building, one by Maureen Sielaff, and one by Jordan Miranda. It is a little unusual to see two reports on the same day on the same subject, but it was very enlightening. Both your reporters were reporting from the same set of known facts, and yet the two were miles apart. For shear professionalism, Maureen Sielaff wins hands down. Her main purpose was unquestionably to provide accurate information on what happened. Mr. Miranda, on the other hand, was clearly more interested in taking advantage of a tragic situation to push his desire for gun confiscation, which is so typical of mainstream journalists anymore. If he had taken the time to first get his facts straight, and Maureen did, he might have been a little less transparent. Maureen reported one tourist hit by stray bullets. Jordan reported several. The correct answer was one. Technically, yes, the .38 revolver was an assault pistol, because any weapon used for assault is an assault weapon. The smoothbore Brown Besses with an effective range of less than 50 yards that the British used to assault the patriot militia at Lexington were assault rifles, though they were not fully automatic. The Kentucky Long Rifles the patriot militia used to effectively kill the British from 200 yards back were not assault rifles, because they were being used to DEFEND, not assault. So technically he was correct on that one. But the use of emotionally hyped terms like that is not meant to inform, but to propagandize, and it is becoming so painfully obvious that one would thing they would be too embarrassed to do it. From the quality of Maureen Sielaff's writing it is easy to see why her article make your Top Stories more often. I particularly enjoyed her recent series on the Nation of Islam, especially part 5, where she brought it all together in a way I just had not considered before. Maureen you should promote immediately. Jordan, who obviously hopes to make the big time by impressing the "Fourth Estate" with his liberal credentials, should spend a little more time serving as an apprentice to one such as her. He's just not quite ready for prime time. Maybe her professionalism will rub off on him. Timothy Schwartz Rockford, Illinois [NOTE: There is an old admonition: "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen." Those who request their work be published in The Vigo Examiner accept that there may be heat, and they cannot expect that their readers will be censored to protect their feelings. ED] http://www.Vigo-Examiner.com If police officers cannot guarantee protection even to themselves in a well-defended Capitol building, then they surely cannot guarantee protection to ordinary citizens in ordinary homes. The police owe no legal duty to protect individual citizens; their job is only to protect society in general. If you face a threat of attack by a deranged and murderous aggressor, then trading your gun for a telephone to dial "9-1-1" is to surrender to the killer. Go to http://www.jpfo.org/Dial911.htm Real-To: Norman Olson Here's a question for anti-gun people: "Would you be willing to put a sticker on your car window or the front door of your house saying 'I am an anti-gun person--there are no guns in this [car/house]'" If they are so proud of being anti-gun, why not publicize it on their property? Kind Regards, Norm Olson APFN@netbox.com Email list send Subscribe in Subject line: http://www.esotericworldnews.com/apfncont.htm APFN ONELIST: http://www.onelist/subscribe.cgi/apfn The "PATRIOT NEWS HOUR" - Mon./Tues. 9:00 PM (CST) Shortwave 5.085 - Satellite GALAXY 7, Tr. 14, Audio 7.72 - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:59:42 -0600 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: Two web sites (fwd) Received: from wvc ([204.246.130.34]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 01:10:21 -0600 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id AAA28635; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 00:59:26 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id DAA17327; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 03:08:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 03:08:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma017284; Wed Jul 29 03:07:03 1998 Message-Id: <9807290607.0r81@xpresso.seaslug.org> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: noban@xpresso.seaslug.org Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk From: noban@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Two web sites (fwd) X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Jul 28, ataylor@nmsu.edu wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows -------------------= - -] Both sites are very interesting. THe first is the Australian site. This site is excellent. It's also alarming as all get out. Some of the proposals regarding "microdisarmament" being pushed in the UN by the Japanese, Canadian and Australian governments are "supported" by text from Australia. Persons who have been participants on talk.politics.guns will recognize some of the usual international suspects referenced by the Aussie government, such as Martin Killias. The Aussie shooting sports association web page is located at: http://www.ssaa.org.au I happened to reach it from the Illinois State Rifle Association's Champaign branch web page, which is located at: http://www.cahmbana.com/~CCG/ and which has some rather interesting documents and photographs from the UN (read, NATO) mission in the Balkans. There really, genuinely, is an organized group of people in the=20 United Nations who want to essentially ban all small arms, right down to the .22 rabbit rifle on farms from New South Wales to=20 New Mexico to Wales. This isn't a "blak helikopters are massing on Catalina island to invade Pasadena" rumor, it's rather "UN bureaucrats from Japan, Canada, India and other countries are diligently drawing up detailed plans to ban all fireams, for what they see as the good of mankind"...and for political goals, as well. By the way, one of the more interesting documents from the Balkans concerns what the NATO folks consider appropriate small arms for a police station: One handgun per officer, and one shotgun for every ten officers. Period. Anything more is "excess" and likely to be confiscated by the peace- keeping forces. Folks on this list who are peace officers might want to contemplate that; I don't see any backup pieces, for example, nor does it necessarily follow that officer's families have any firearms at all.=20 We live in interesting times... [------------------------- end of forwarded message -----------------------= - -] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= - - ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------= - - An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand =3D Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy = a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus = Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------= - - - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:38:53 -0600 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: Clean thoughts on a dirty wall: Pvt. Ryan (fwd) Received: from wvc ([204.246.130.34]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:34:02 -0600 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA28900; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:23:05 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id LAA18612; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:23:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:23:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma018302; Wed Jul 29 11:20:46 1998 Message-Id: Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: pwatson@utdallas.edu Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk From: Paul M Watson To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Clean thoughts on a dirty wall: Pvt. Ryan (fwd) X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:46:08 -0600 From: assets@been-there.com Reply-To: texas-gun-owners@Mailing-List.net Subject: Clean thoughts on a dirty wall: Pvt. Ryan Posted to texas-gun-owners by assets@been-there.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I just returned from the theater where I watched the latest Spielberg movie. After carefully considering what I'd seen for quite a while, I've come to the conclusion that Spielberg is one of the most cynical people of the Century. In "Schindler's List", he overlooked that Oskar Schindler's interests were in his labor pool (Jews), war profiteering and money and not the interests of the Third Reich. He also conveniently overlooked the fact (and Schindler's one act of REAL concern for those Jewish labourers), that before Schindler fled into Czechoslovakia, he ARMED the Jewish labourers = he left behind so they could defend themselves from roving SS units. Why did he ignore that? Israel never forgot it. In "Ryan", he mercilessly exploits violence and carnage in an endless = montage as we follow Tom Hanks around in a story that is similar in design to "A day in the life of Ivan Denisovich". My father died in the Pacific theater in WWII, so did an Uncle and two cousins who perished at Normandy. My wife's father served along with SEVEN of his brothers, three of them dying at Normandy. There are hundreds of thousands like we survivors. I also have a lot of friends on the Wall in D.C., and more than a few of them aren't buried anywhere. Spielberg, the pacifist and Clinton supporter and chum, owns one of the largest gun collections in California. As you can see from "Ryan" he is fascinated with war toys, I lost track of the number of times the MG42 and other ordnance and small arms were lovingly mentioned.=20 Spielberg is throwing a fundraiser/promotion party for Clinton and "Pvt. Ryan" at the same time and place. Are his firearms ownership, use and possession rights at risk from the Clinton agenda? How can he justify a film with such unspeakable and unneccesary violence, make billions on it, then donate and arrange donations to a man who is a coward, shirked national service except perhaps for service to Moscow, and whose character is non existent, except for that which is bad? Does anyone remember the cynicism of Clinton "arranging" some rocks into a cruciform at the = Normandy Beach? An example of modern new age buzzspeak dialog was when Hank's character tells Ryan that he'll "need some time with this", referring to the news of his brother's deaths. Yeah, I just KNOW they spoke that way. I'm OK with this, so let me get in touch with my feelings as soon as I work through = it. Blecchh! And then, the final cynicism, the final insult, is this poor bastard, Pvt. Ryan, 54 years later, asking his wife if he's lived a good life. If he hadn't, he couldn't have approached that grave, unless he was as cynical = as is our Commander in Chief and his fan, wannabe Spielberg. The use, by a movieland George Marshall, of Lincoln's words, twice, in a pat response to the loss of a son, husband or father, in this context made me choke with rage. I was in a little war, and the carnage was there, sure enough, along with the B.S. that goes along with war. Men are shot or blown to pieces, sometimes by our own side, and their buddies do try, heroically, to save them, often to no avail and the eternal psychological and physical scars that the survivors of war carry on into civilian life.=20 But our fathers, grandfathers and uncles and the women who served in WWII saw real carnage and disaster, and that money is being made off their backs, their great sacrifices, horrible deaths and honorable service, to = be given to the campaign funds and supporters of a lying coward and his ilk, who would disarm and weaken us personally and Nationally to the point of inviting attack, both from abroad and criminals at home, with the complicity of a hollywood wannabe, neither of whom have ever been within thousands of miles of conflict is just one of the most cynical and repugnant acts if not THE most cynical and repugnant act I've seen. Yeah, it's only a movie, but we live in an era when most young people have not the education or critical and analytical thinking skills to figure = this out. Many youngsters LEARN history (or what they think is history) from these movies purporting to be historical in origin. It's propaganda, exploitation of violence to make an anti-war film while simultaneously using graphic violence and decrying violence. Joseph Goebbels would have been proud of this film. Our youngsters have to know that there are some principles and events we simply must be willing to go to war over, and it would help if they knew why all those fine young men were in LSTs, sailing into a meatgrinder in the first place. A meatgrinder that could have been avoided in the 1930s were it not for the COWARDICE of the men in charge when it came time to call Hitler's bluff. Spielberg has had me for the last time. I'll be damned before I'll ever send another nickel his way again. He should be ashamed, but he isn't. What's worse, the movie will make hundreds of millions and few but the dinosaurs will question it. As Vonnegut said in "Slapstick", Hi-ho.=20 To all you WWII vets out there, someone should apologize to you, but all I can do is thank you again for all you gave, all you did, and all you lost. Thank you. Joe Horn (c)1998 - -- For help with Majordomo commands, send a message to majordomo@mailing-list.= net with the word help in the message body. - - ------------------------------ End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #91 **********************************