From: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com (utah-firearms-digest) To: utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: utah-firearms-digest V2 #98 Reply-To: utah-firearms-digest Sender: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk utah-firearms-digest Thursday, August 27 1998 Volume 02 : Number 098 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 24 Aug 98 19:16:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Armed agents without accountability - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Dean, Greg" Newsgroups: alt.politics.media,alt.news-media,alt.politics.usa.misc, talk.politics.guns,alt.politics.clinton,misc.legal.atl.law-enforcement, alt.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 10:05:53 -0500 Subject: ARMED FED UNDER NO AUTHORITY: A CALL TO ARMS WANTED >*Armed agents without accountability >"[The high number of armed federal agents] is not being blown out of >proportion. For one thing, the number of 75,000 is probably already >outdated. It's very likely to be about 85,000, and growing at that rate >each year at least. There's a real question I think, even apart from >whether it's constitutionally permissible to have federal law >enforcement agencies, outside a very narrow range of activity, and that >is: where is the accountability for the ones we already have? We hear >from the gun control proponents, people who want to restrict our right >to keep and bear arms, that if you and I have a gun and we're out where >some jerk cuts us off in traffic, or we're going to go into a bar and >get into a volatile situation, somehow that's going to lead to violence. Blame us in the religious right. If our grandparents had not pushed the issue of prohibition, there would not have been a break down in society in the 1920s. This caused the formation of the Federal law enforcement due to local government decay. >Not only does that not happen, but the fact of the matter is, we have >federal agents committing outrages. Whether it's Waco, or at Ruby Ridge >against the Weaver family, where the FBI had to pay over three million >dollars to end the judicial process, or else they really get washed. Or >a lot of other 'oops, sorry, we got the wrong place. Sorry, we tore >your house up. Sorry you died of a heart attack.' That sort of thing >just doesn't result in any accountability," said Larry Pratt, President >of Gun Owners of America, on "Endangered Liberties". Marc Morano, an >investigative reporter for "American Investigator", who last week >reported on the armed agents of the Fish and Wildlife Service, echoed >Pratt's concerns for accountability. Morano explained, "We found a >common trait among all the stories. All the agents were armed, they all >wore flak jackets, and they all had bad attitudes. And what would >happen, is, they would raid these people's private homes, and >essentially violate all these people's rights in their own home, and >there's no retribution. There's no accountability. And I think that's >what is most disturbing-there's no one doing anything about it - no one >knows about it." Federal Law Enforcement officers are quiting in record numbers. It is the same with the military. While everyone at the Federal level likes passing laws and regulations, enforcement is too "working class". College boys do not like getting their hands dirty. Most law enforcement is still at the local level. Over 550,000 officers. In fact half of that number is in departments with less than 17 LEOs on staff. If you notice, the Feds are trying to get state and local government to do their dirty work. The Feds want to pass the laws then make local government pay to do the clean up. All government is still local. >Contact: Producer, Joe Starrs @ 202.546.3000 >Editor's Note: The author of the Direct Line Commentary appearing in the >August 9th issue of Notable News Now, should have been identified as J. >Bradley Keena. >Watch all Free Congress Programming in RealVideo on the Internet: >http://www.freecongress.org/ - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 98 19:16:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: CIA created HCI? - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Dean, Greg" Newsgroups: alt.law-enforcement,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.rush-limbaugh, alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian, alt.politics.usa.republican Subject: Re: !! Domestic Terrorism !! Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:40:46 -0500 Drgwarwhr wrote in message <1998081410224800.GAA21435@ladder03.news.aol.com>... >For the record: >The CIA is the largest and best funded terrorist onganization on the >planet. It is a rogue institution that is capible of anything but the >right thing. This organization is not citizen friendly and has the >attitude of a paranoid coke-head that is armed to the teeth. As far as I >am concerned, the CIA started smuggling Cocaine for their own consumption. >(DARE to drug test the CIA) They sure act like a bunch of tweakers. Being >SPUN is part of their job. The Right wing militias have the ATF; the Left wing extremists have always had the CIA. >This government seems determined to turn this country into a police state. >What better excuse for tanks in the streets than terrorists with nukes and >Biological weapons. The way I see it, this government would have the most >to gain in a domestic terror campaign. If that was not the case, the >government would not be fighting this drug war and supplying the drugs at >the same time. >When the drug war goes sour, the threat of domestic terrorism with nukes >and biological weapons is the next logical step. So don't be surprised >when it happens. Now, since the HCI and other anti-gun groups were started by a bunch of folks retired from the CIA, where does that leave us? >Sincerely, >Jay Lindberg >PS. Our chances of being shot in the back by a cop are a lot better >than being on the recieving end of a Nuke. >Drgwarwhr@aol.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 98 19:16:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: PA background check database 1/2 - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "ScanThisNews" To: "Scan This News Recipients List" Subject: [FP] PA building background check database on gun purchasers Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 09:25:23 -0500 X-Web-Site: http://www.efga.org/ X-Mail-List-Info: http://efga.org/about/maillist/ X-SCAN: http://www.networkusa.org/fingerprint.shtml - ------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.post-gazette.com:80/regionstate/19980823bchecks2.asp Pennsylvania Instant Background Checks are being used to create a database of gun owners. Quoting from the article - "The state is building a database to eliminate the problem, but it will not be in place for a few months, Lewis said." "When dealers call PICS with a buyer's driver's license or state identification number, the system automatically checks four state databases -- criminal history, warrants, protection from abuse orders and mental health -- and a pool of eight federal databases, including the National Crime Information Clearinghouse." - ------------------------------------------------------------ Critics take aim at instant checks Pa.'s new gun application process gets mixed reviews Sunday, August 23, 1998 By Mike Bucsko, Post-Gazette Staff Writer On Monday afternoon, Anthony Jackson went into a Wilkinsburg gun shop and asked its employees to process an application for him so he could buy a handgun from another dealer. The application went through the Pennsylvania Instant Check System, the state's 8-week-old electronic background check system. PICS turned up an outstanding warrant on Jackson for jumping bail. State police in suburban Harrisburg, where the PICS system is located, notified Wilkinsburg police within minutes, and they arrested Jackson, 42, of East Liberty. Jackson's arrest during a handgun purchase is one of four in Allegheny County and a dozen statewide since the PICS system began July 1. It is an example of why Gov. Ridge pushed for the new background check system - -- to keep weapons out of the hands of criminals. But some local gun dealers said the PICS system also was keeping handguns out of the hands of citizens entitled to possess them. Before July 1, people who wanted to buy handguns in Pennsylvania had to wait five days under federal law until the local county sheriff's office completed a background check. The $3.5 million PICS system replaced the five-day waiting period with what were supposed to be immediate background checks. Prospective handgun buyers could receive approval within minutes if they had no prior history of certain criminal convictions, such as crimes that involved violence and drugs; protection from abuse orders; or mental illness that resulted in an involuntary hospital commitment. PICS has a $3.7 million budget this year. Some of the "instant" checks occurred within two or three minutes, but others took 15 or 20 minutes, tying up gun shop employees on telephones. Each time a dealer requests a background check, it costs $2, so dealers can hang up and pay another $2 for a new call, or, they can remain on the phone until they are told the application is approved, denied or will take longer for review. And the "instant" checks only occur in two-thirds of the cases. The remaining third of handgun purchase applications are put on "pending" status while PICS workers check details in the buyers' backgrounds that delay approval. For buyers with clean records, a conviction that was never expunged, a clerical error on a birth date or a mix-up over a name might cause the delay. The delays can take anywhere from a few hours to several weeks. Some customers have become impatient and decided they don't want the guns after all. "When it works purely automated, it's fine," said George Romanoff, owner of Ace Sporting Goods Inc. in South Strabane, one of Western Pennsylvania's largest weapons dealers. "We don't want people who aren't supposed to have firearms to have firearms. But the way this is operating, it's really putting a severe damper on our business." Dealers expect the problem with the delays to get worse later this year when background checks will be required for the purchase of rifles and shotguns in addition to handguns, which will about double the amount of applications that will go through PICS. [ Continued In Next Message... ] - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 98 19:16:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: PA background check database 2/2 "I think it will have a long-term detrimental effect (on business)," said J.R. Moore, manager of Braverman Arms Co. Inc. in Wilkinsburg, the store where Jackson was arrested. But not all dealers are dissatisfied with PICS. Smaller gun shops have not had the problems with delays that larger businesses, such as Braverman and Ace, have experienced. "We have no problems with the system," said Mike Rapino Sr., owner of Sharpsburg Gun and Tackle. "There are delays, but they're not presenting a problem. We're comfortable with them. We'd rather make sure the right people get the guns, even if it takes a week." PICS, which operates out of the state police headquarters building near Harrisburg, is prepared to handle the estimated 1 million requests it will receive in its first year of operation, state police spokesman Jack Lewis said. But Lewis acknowledged that PICS has had some problems and will probably continue to have problems while kinks are being worked out during its initial operation. For instance, dealers complain that errors such as inaccurate birth dates are not corrected once a buyer's application is approved. So the next time the same person tries to buy a handgun, the application approval will be delayed while PICS workers check for the same problem. And the burden is on the buyer to prove that the problem is due to an error. The state is building a database to eliminate the problem, but it will not be in place for a few months, Lewis said. PICS also might have to hire additional workers or add telephone lines to keep up with demand. PICS now employs 52 people with 29 cubicles, where operators can take calls for background checks on 36 telephone lines from 8 a.m. to 10 p.m. When dealers call PICS with a buyer's driver's license or state identification number, the system automatically checks four state databases -- criminal history, warrants, protection from abuse orders and mental health -- and a pool of eight federal databases, including the National Crime Information Clearinghouse. The FBI is hiring dozens of additional workers at its Clarksburg, W.Va., records center to handle demand from Pennsylvania and other states for the background checks. On its first day of operation, PICS was unable to process any applications for five hours because the federal system was not available. Dealers have complained that they have gotten recorded messages at PICS advising them to call back because the system is not available. There is no backup system if PICS is not working. If there is a question about a record, the automated PICS system bounces to an operator, who will try to resolve the problem. If it cannot be resolved within what Lewis called a "reasonable" time, the application will be placed on pending status. The dealer is to be notified within five days whether the application is approved, denied or will take longer for review. However, Romanoff and other dealers said they had not received notification after the five-day period on several occasions. If the application is denied, the buyer can appeal to the state. If the appeal is turned down, a further appeal can go to the state attorney general's office and then to Commonwealth Court. But the system doesn't always operate smoothly, and notification is not guaranteed, either of the application status or of the appeal. Romanoff and his business operations manager, Pam Gayarski, have compiled a four-page list of 15 separate instances in which PICS had problems. The problems range from one buyer whose paperwork apparently was misplaced and therefore unnecessarily delayed to instances in which the PICS system did not operate at all because of problems with its databases. One problem the dealers cited concerns people who have licenses to carry a firearm. Before July 1, these people could walk into a gun shop and walk out with a handgun without a background check. But they can no longer do that. Buyers with so-called "carry" licenses have to undergo background checks with everyone else, though they were subjected to background checks when they received their licenses. This has caused many complaints to Harrisburg, Lewis said. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:01:33 -0600 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: Impeachment Blitz Received: from vader.thnet.com ([206.98.115.1]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 06:08:46 -0600 Received: from bruce17.thnet.com (bruce28.thnet.com [206.98.115.128]) by vader.thnet.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA05956; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 07:00:07 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199808251200.HAA05956@vader.thnet.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Distribution" Organization: The Vigo Examiner To: Distribution@vader.thnet.com Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 06:48:43 +0000 Subject: Impeachment Blitz Reply-to: Distribution@Vigo-Examiner.com Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline LETTER Impeachment Blitz *** Time for postcard blitz with phone follow up. *** KISS - Keep It Short and Simple. Very important. Simply say 2 things in BIG, plain letters: Impeach Clinton NOW. Post the Starr Report on the Internet AS SOON as it = is received. That's all you need to say. Send them to your 2 Senators and 1 Representative plus all supporters in Congress. Congress likes to play = show and tell and can take stacks of post cards to the floor. C-SPAN will see your cards. The media will notice your cards. That could be the influence we need. Cards, letters, e-mail, and telephone calls will all help for any issue. But, this time, we need postcards. They are easy to stack up and take to the floor of Congress. Please distribute this letter widely before sending your own cards. = Please keep your groups organized so we can get this very necessary chore done. For more information, please read Heads Up #99. Simply click the headline at the top of page at my website at http://www.uhuh.com You can find your Congress Critters addresses at http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/ Let's each of us get 100 more people to send postcards. Let's really blitz Congress! This letter will be posted in Blitz Central at http://www.uhuh.com Click = on Blitz. Yours in liberty, Forest forest@uhuh.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= http://www.Vigo-Examiner.com TEXT VERSION Enjoy a free 90 day trial subscription to The Vigo Examiner. You will receive one to three of our top articles each day. =20 Send your subscription request, and all other communication to Editor@Vigo-Examiner.com. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 98 07:49:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: First Computer Chip Implant - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:21:57 -0700 From: Ed Wolfe To: fratrum@netside.com From the AP Mike P Professor claims to receive first chip implant 12.08 p.m. ET (1609 GMT) August 25, 1998 READING, England -- Professor Kevin Warwick claimed on Tuesday to be the first person in the world to have a computer chip surgically implanted into his body. Warwick told a news conference that a glass capsule about one inch long and one-tenth of an inch wide containing an electromagnetic coil and a silicon chip was inserted into his arm on Monday. "It is a research experiment. I don't know how long we will leave the implant in but it's looking at what's possible now in terms of communicating between a computer and myself,'' Warwick said. Warwick is head of the Cybernetics Department at the University of Reading. He demonstrated the chip in action by walking through the front door of his department. "Good morning, Professor Warwick. You have five new E mails,'' said a computerized voice activated by the inserted chip. The human as computer had many applications, but also dangers, Warwick said. "Possibilities could be that anyone who wanted access to a gun could do so only if they had one of these implants,'' he said. "Then if they actually try and enter a school or building that doesn't want them in there, the school computer would sound alarms and warn people inside or even prevent them having access. "The same could be true at work where employees could be tracked in and out of the building to see when they are there. "This is a technology where there are big positives but there are also big negatives. Do we want to hand over control to machinery or to have buildings telling us what we can do or can't do?'' "I'm really looking at what's technically possible. I'm excited about the future prospects, particularly the human body communicating and interacting with a computer. There are a lot of exciting possibilities.'' Warwick said the chip was implanted by his own doctor, who advised him to have it removed within 10 days. There was a danger of infection, although Warwick was taking antibiotics. Reading University said in a statement that this was the first chip to be surgically inserted into a human. "It is therefore not known what effects it will have, how well it will operate and how robust it will be. Professor Warwick is therefore taking an enormous risk -- for the transponder to leak or shatter within his body could be catastrophic,'' the statement said. Warwick shrugged off the dangers. "It doesn't hurt any. I took some Nurofen just before the operation. It feels uncomfortable; it feels as though there's something in my arm, but it doesn't feel unpleasant.'' "Cybernetics is all about humans and technology interacting. For a professor of cybernetics to become a true Cyborg -- part man, part machine -- is therefore rather appropriate,'' Warwick said. comments@foxnews.com ============================================= To unsubscribe, write to pi-request@involved.com with "unsubscribe" in the body of the message. (Without the quote marks.) - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 14:33:23 -0600 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: CNN Has More Than Hurricane Bonnie To Contend With Wednesday Received: from wvc ([204.246.130.34]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:19:02 -0600 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA23024; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:07:34 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id NAA03543; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 13:17:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 13:17:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma003176; Wed Aug 26 13:12:25 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980826113827.0068a170@mail.swbell.net> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: rgustav@swbell.net Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk From: Robin Arthur Gustavson To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: CNN Has More Than Hurricane Bonnie To Contend With Wednesday X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline >Return-Path: >From: admin@hackworth.com >X-Sender: hwadmin@mail.cyberport.net >Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:48:52 -0600 >To: (Recipient list suppressed) >Subject: CNN Has More Than Hurricane Bonnie To Contend With Wednesday=3D20= >X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mail1.rcsntx.swbell.net id SAA06613 > >CNN Has More Than Hurricane Bonnie To Contend With Wednesday=3D20 > > Atlanta, GA, Aug, 26th=3D85 CNN executives and staffers minds may = be on the >pending hurricane, but on Wednesday, August 26th, they are going to come >face-to-face with some of the Vietnam War veterans which they had earlier >this year branded as "War Criminals".=3D20 > > The veterans, most of whom represent the now-famous MACVSOG and = other >Special Forces units in Vietnam, their friends and families promise an >entirely peaceful demonstration of their dissatisfaction of CNN and >Time-Warner=3D92s handling of their erroneous, patently false, and=3D subsequently >totally discredited, production of "Tailwind - Valley of Death" story. > > The veterans' charge that CNN & Time-Warner have not acted = responsibly, >fairly nor in any good faith whatsoever in correcting their Tailwind = story >errors and omissions. > > The issues are essentially those which CNN had promised the = Special Forces >and Special Operations Associations they would do. Standard things that a >media organization must do when they have wronged and defamed an = honorable >and honest group of people. > > The veterans' demands are very straightforward -- > > * An apology for the wanton defamation of their character, = integrity and >conduct during their service in the Vietnam War. A genuine and sincere >public apology for CNN=3D92s egregious errors in this story. Ted Turner = has >stated that he owes them a public apology, but he has not gotten around = to >making it. The group will visit his headquarters Wednesday, fully = expecting >to collect on this debt. And to see it broadcast in the same manner as = the >original story.=3D20 > > * A REAL retraction to the reckless disregard for the truth they >demonstrated in the original Operation Tailwind story. Not a wimpy, lame >"We can=3D92t prove it at this time=3D85" statement. That is not a = retraction, >that's further insult. A front page retraction that starts with "We were >wrong and we=3D92re sorry" retraction is what the vets are demanding.=3D20= > > * The removal of ALL offending and conspiratorial staff involved = in the >production of this libelous program. Minimally this must include Rick >Kaplan and Peter Arnett. Continuation of their retention at CNN is >absolutely intolerable to the veteran community. This is certainly not = the >first offense for either of them.=3D20 > > * Equal Air Time to correct the damages which CNN has done to all = Vietnam >War veterans. To show the real Operation Tailwind story and correct the >misnomers about all veterans which this kind of story perpetuates. = =3D91Equal >air time=3D92 means prime time Sunday night=3D85 just as the original = lies were >broadcast and not once, but twice.=3D20 > > * Compensation to those directly damaged by this malicious = campaign. >Including both the American GI=3D92s and the Montagnard communities here = in >this country.=3D20 > >Vets' Message To CNN Is Simple --=3D20 > > The Issue Is Not Going To Go Away & Neither Are American = Veterans!=3D20 >Until such point as CNN addresses these grievances sincerely, honestly = and >in straightforward fashion, it will not be forgotten and will not go = away. >Plain and simple.=3D20 >=3D20 >You Are Invited --=3D20 > > To the peaceful gathering at CNN headquarters in Atlanta, Georgia, = on >Wednesday, August 26 from 11 AM until 3 PM to witness firsthand how CNN >executives and staff answer to these grievances face-to-face with the >community they wrongly accuse of being war criminals.=3D20 > >Media Contact =3D97=3D20 >J.R. Tobin=3D20 >(704) 545-0585 Office=3D20 >(704) 564-2224 Mobile=3D20 > > > > By all means send to your members. Ask them to further distribute,= too. > > Regarding attendees, inform them that this is to be a first rate >professional protest and that they should go to the Tailwind Info Center >referenced on the Press Release and read the Op Ord listed under "Join Us >In Atlanta" and be prepared to conform to the instructions. Tell them = that >anyone attending must adhere to the op order. > > The links, if you want to mail directly from the html pages as I = did are >http://www.GreenBeret.Net/Tailwind/PressInfo/Announcements/8-26%20Press%20= >Release.htm >for the press release and >http://www.GreenBeret.Net/Tailwind/Misc/OpOrd-10-26-98-Atlanta.html > > I would just caution them about showing up to participate without = being >thoroughly familiar with the op ord and being in proper and professional >accordance with the dress code outlined therein. This will be STRICTLY >enforced. Absolutely no camo. > > Other than that, fling as far and wide as you can.=3D20 > > Thanks a lot, > >-- Bob Golden > > - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 10:14:31 -0600 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: Re: Gunsmiths & Brady (fwd) Received: from wvc ([204.246.130.34]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 07:48:19 -0600 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA23875; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 07:36:48 -0600 Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id JAA04195; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 09:45:35 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 09:45:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3) id sma003978; Thu Aug 27 09:42:34 1998 Message-Id: Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com Reply-To: pwatson@utdallas.edu Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@Mainstream.net Precedence: bulk From: Paul M Watson To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Gunsmiths & Brady (fwd) X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 01:01:09 -0600 From: "L. Neil Smith" Subject: Re: Gunsmiths & Brady Surprise! Surprise! Surpise! Ken Rineer wrote ... > When the permanent provisions of Brady go into effect on Nov 30th, if > = you take a firearm to have any repairs made to it, when you pick it=20 > up, you will have to fill out the new form the ATF has designed. Had enough, yet? It's even "better" than that. You'll have to pass an FBI background check -- on a gun you may have owned for _decades_ - -- and if you don't pass, the gunsmith confiscates your weapon.=20 Had enough, yet? Even if you do pass, you'll have to pay a $16.00 charge for the "service" of having had your metaphorical rectum probed by the government.=20 Had enough, yet? The same transparently unconstitutional strictures apply to pawnshops.=20 Had enough, yet? Friends, the most important thing to know about = this mess right now is that the _Republicans_ and the _NRA_ did it to us. The Democrats would never have been able to accomplish it without them.=20 Had enough, yet? The best thing you can do is write whatever squamous, fetid, pile of cretinous dung calls himself your Republican representative or Senator and inform him that if this blantantly illegal garbage isn't repealed, _right now_ -- along with the Ugly Gun and Magazine ban attributed to Clinton, but actually the brainchild of Jack Kemp and William Bennett -- then it's going to be the end of the Republican Party.=20 Had enough, yet? If you're interested in learning how (or sending the Elephant Boys another message), feel free to read, download, and pass along what you find at:=20 http://www.webleyweb.com/tle/le970601-01.html and:=20 http://www.webleyweb.com/tle/le970701-02.html Had enough, yet? I guarantee that this is the _only_ effective tactic left to us. But it is a good one, and it will succeed if you're willing to do the minimum work of getting it to Republican incumbents and candidates, and apssing it along to people on our side who will do the same.=20 If you aren't willing, give up any idea that we're better and stronger that the Brits, the Australians, or the Canadians. We ourselves will have been the major culprits in the destruction of American = liberty.=20 Had enough, yet? What's it gonna be, friends? A future of freedom or a future in chains? It's up to you.=20 L. Neil Smith Author, _The Probability Broach_, _Pallas_, et al. -- ********************************************************************** Declare your own website a BILL OF RIGHTS ENFORCEMENT site today!! The vile reign of state terrorism is drawing to a close at long last. A new day is dawning for _liberty_. You can share in making history. Go to http://www.webleyweb.com/lneil/index.html and click on the scroll.=20 ********************************************************************** - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 11:44:42 -0600 From: Will Thompson Subject: Re: [LPUtah Press Release] Charles Hardy wrote: > > FYI, > > ----BEGIN FORWARDED MESSGE---- > > Libertarian Party of Utah > Salt Lake City, Ut > [...snip...] > > "Rep. Hansen seems to be right in touch with the majority of Utah's > electorate on this issue," said Libertarian Party state chair Jim > Dexter. "Utahns have always rejected waiting periods as > unconstitutional infringements of our most basic right to effective, > armed defense. We also require the state to issue concealed weapons > permits to any competent, law-abiding adult who can show basic > proficiency with a firearm." > > The Libertarian Party called on Rep. Hansen to sponsor legislation to > repeal the Brady law and to guarantee that a person legally allowed to > carry a gun for self defense in any State could legally do so in the > District of Columbia and federal territories. > [...snip...] > Thanks and Kudos to the LPU and Jim for making the statement! Welcome! But.... Is it really the position of the LPU that "our most basic right to effective, armed defense." can be given or taken away by "the state" which issues "concealed weapons permits to any competent, law-abiding adult who can show basic proficiency with a firearm." and that the state may "allow" ... "a person"..." to carry a gun for self defense"? Will - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 12:50:48 -0600 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: GSL> cnjs/colt's Received: from wvc ([204.246.130.34]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:31:44 -0600 Received: from listbox.com by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA23574; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:20:14 -0600 Received: (qmail 14030 invoked by uid 516); 27 Aug 1998 04:30:27 -0000 Delivered-To: rkba-co@majordomo.pobox.com Received: (qmail 14016 invoked from network); 27 Aug 1998 04:30:22 -0000 Received: from growl.pobox.com (208.210.124.27) by majordomo.pobox.com with SMTP; 27 Aug 1998 04:30:22 -0000 Received: from mail2.rockymtn.net (ns2.rockymtn.net [166.93.8.2]) by growl.pobox.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA29236 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 00:30:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 166-93-76-1.rmi.net (166-93-76-1.rmi.net [166.93.76.1]) by mail2.rockymtn.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA28901; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:23:48 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:23:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199808270423.WAA28901@mail2.rockymtn.net> X-Sender: davisda@shell.rmi.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 To: davisda@rmi.net From: Douglas Davis Subject: GSL> cnjs/colt's Sender: owner-rkba-co.new@majordomo.pobox.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rkba-co@majordomo.pobox.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Posted to rkba-co by Douglas Davis - ----------------------- >Return-Path: >Delivered-To: gsl@majordomo.pobox.com >From: >Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 01:24:36 EDT >To: gsl@listbox.com >Subject: GSL> cnjs/colt's >Sender: owner-gsl@listbox.com >Reply-To: gsl@listbox.com > >----------------------------------------- http://GunsSaveLives.com > Coalition of New Jersey Sportsmen > Richard Miller - Chairman > 2316 Lyde Place - Scotch Plains, NJ 07076 - Fax 908 889-5931 > > >August 14, 1998 > > OPEN LETTER TO THE PUBLIC > >Re: CNJS Calling off Boycott against Colt's and Full Retraction of Claims = Made >against Colt's > >The Coalition of New Jersey Sportsmen made accusatory statements against >Colt's >Manufacturing Company, Inc., its President Ron Stewart, and its Chairman >Donald >Zilkha. These statements were broadly disseminated and made several weeks = ago, >during and around the time of NRA Show in Philadelphia. > >We said that Colt's, Mr. Stewart and Mr. Zilkha took actions that = threatened >Second >Amendment Rights and other actions that were contrary to our interest. = Among >the >charges, we accused Colt's of seeking the passage of legislation that = would >outlaw >guns that did not use smart gun technology. We accused Mr. Stewart of >mismanagement and placing Colt's in dire financial condition. We also = accused >Colt's, >and later Mr. Zilkha, of contributing to Charles Schumer's campaign*. = Finally, >we >called for a boycott against Colt's. > >We now realize that we were given erroneous and false information and = drew the >wrong conclusions. Therefore, we unconditionally retract everything we = said >negative >about Colt's, Mr. Stewart and Mr. Zilkha. We are very sorry for what we = did >and only >wish that we had made this retraction sooner. In light of our serious = mistakes >of fact >and judgement, we ask everyone to please immediately disregard the = Coalition >of New >Jersey Sportsmen's call for a boycott against Colt's. Again, we are very = sorry >and >sincerely apologize for our actions. > >Very truly yours, >(Signed) >Richard Miller, Chairman > >*Mr. Zilkha as an individual, not Colt's, contributed to Mr. Schumer's >campaign. However, taken >in perspective, the amount contributed was small; Mr. Zilkha has a = multitude >of interests beyond >firearms; and he has contributed on a bipartisan basis, making contributio= n to >a number of >Republicans including House Speaker Newt Gingrich, Bob Dole and George = Bush.=20 > > >-------------------------- >GunsSaveLives Internet Discussion List > >This list is governed by an acceptable use >policy: http://www.wizard.net/~kc/policy.html >or available upon request. > >To unsubscribe send a message to >majordomo@listbox.com > >with the following line in the body: > >unsubscribe gsl > >GUNSSAVELIVES (GSL) IS A PRIVATE UNMODERATED LIST. >THE OWNER TAKES NO RESPONSIBILTY FOR CONTENT. ALL >RIGHTS RESERVED. > ****************** Firearms, self-defense, and other information, with LINKS are available at: http://shell.rmi.net/~davisda Latest additions are found in the group NEW with GOA and other alerts under the heading ALERTS. For those without browser capabilities, send [request index.txt] to davisda@rmi.net and an index of the files at this site will be e-mailed to you. Then send [request ] and the requested file will be sent as a message. Various shareware programs are archived at: ftp://shell.rmi.net/pub2/davisda To receive the contents of the FTP site, send [request index.ftp] to davisda@rmi.net ******************** For Help with Majordomo Commands, please send a message to: Majordomo@majordomo.pobox.com with the word Help in the body of the message - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 13:37:18 -0600 From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: Re: [LPUtah Press Release] Will, You're most welcome. However, either you protest too much, or you are simply playing devil's advocate here. :) Certainly with your past association with the LPUtah you are fully aware that we regard permits to carry weapons as infringments of basic rights. Anyone curious about the LPUtah's positions on this or other issues is invited to check out the web page at or to attend one of the many county or other meetings held on a regular basis. Re-read the press release carefully. It does not state any LPUtah support for permits or for the notion of a state "allowing" one to carry. It merely uses Utah's permit system as evidence that the majority of Utahn's believe it is **appropriate** (admittedly most do not yet fully understand the difference between a privledge and a right) to carry a gun for self defense. It also recognizes current realities and casts those realities in what I think is the best possible light in support of our position of expanding the statutory ability to exercise a constitutional right. Vermont is the only State in the Union to currently recognize the RIGHT to KBA. Utah's permit system is one of the less restrictive among the remaining 49 States. That fact indicates, in my mind, that Utahn's are friendly to RKBA even if they don't understand it fully. That is the point. It is deliberately worded so as to not express support where we do not wish to express it while still not coming off as so radical as to be automatically dismissed by too many people. Last time I heard, even you, yourself, had recognized the prudence of working within current confines of law. The State of Utah currently "allows" you to legally carry a concealed weapon. I would certainly not stoop so low as to suggest that your voluntary acquisition of a State issued CCW should be interpreted as support of any kind for restricting Constitutional rights by requiring permits. Please try to give the LPUtah the same consideration and benfit of the doubt in this area I try to give you. In Liberty Charles [for myself only] On Thu, 27 Aug 1998, Will Thompson posted: >Charles Hardy wrote: >> >> FYI, >> >> ----BEGIN FORWARDED MESSGE---- >> >> Libertarian Party of Utah >> Salt Lake City, Ut >> >[...snip...] >> >> "Rep. Hansen seems to be right in touch with the majority of Utah's >> electorate on this issue," said Libertarian Party state chair Jim >> Dexter. "Utahns have always rejected waiting periods as >> unconstitutional infringements of our most basic right to effective, >> armed defense. We also require the state to issue concealed weapons >> permits to any competent, law-abiding adult who can show basic >> proficiency with a firearm." >> >> The Libertarian Party called on Rep. Hansen to sponsor legislation to >> repeal the Brady law and to guarantee that a person legally allowed to >> carry a gun for self defense in any State could legally do so in the >> District of Columbia and federal territories. >> >[...snip...] >> >Thanks and Kudos to the LPU and Jim for making the statement! Welcome! > >But.... > >Is it really the position of the LPU that "our most basic right to >effective, armed defense." can be given or taken away by "the state" >which issues "concealed weapons permits to any competent, law-abiding >adult who can show basic proficiency with a firearm." and that the >state may "allow" ... "a person"..." to carry a gun for self defense"? > >Will > >- > > - -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these things I'm fairly certain 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it. "A cardinal rule of bureaucracy is that it is better to extend an error than to admit a mistake." -- Colin Greenwood - - ------------------------------ End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #98 **********************************