From: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com (utah-firearms-digest) To: utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: utah-firearms-digest V2 #119 Reply-To: utah-firearms-digest Sender: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk utah-firearms-digest Friday, January 8 1999 Volume 02 : Number 119 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 15:27:11 -0700 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: FEAR: James Bovard's New Book: Freedom In Chains Received: from wvc ([204.246.130.34]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Mon, 04 Jan 1999 16:44:39 -0700 Received: from americium.baremetal.com by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA10367; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 16:30:33 -0700 Received: from localhost (mapinc@localhost) by americium.baremetal.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA27123; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:41:36 -0800 Received: by americium.baremetal.com (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 4 Jan 1999 23:40:38 +0000 Received: (from mapinc@localhost) by americium.baremetal.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id PAA26819 for fear-list-outgoing@mapinc.org; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:40:38 -0800 Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:40:38 -0800 Message-Id: <199901042340.PAA26819@americium.baremetal.com> To: fear-list@mapinc.org From: Matthew Gaylor Subject: FEAR: James Bovard's New Book: Freedom In Chains Sender: owner-fear-list@mapinc.org Reply-To: Matthew Gaylor Organization: Forfeiture Endangers American Rights http://www.fear.org/ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline ******************************************************************* FEAR now has a free-form discussion forum at http://www.libertyjournal.com/liberty_forums/index.cfm?cfapp=3D10 courtesy of Patrick Kirkpatrick & the good folk at Liberty Forum ******************************************************************* My friend Jim Bovard is having his new book "Freedom In Chains" released = on February 22 by St. Martin's Press. I'm sure everyone will want to order up this new book and be the first one on your block to get a copy. I'm sure you won't be disappointed. Matt- http://www.jimbovard.com/ Soon to be changed to http://www.jamesbovard.com= Freedom in Chains Publication Date: February 22, 1999 ISBN: 0-312-21441-3 Price: $26.95 Editor: Michael Flamini Contact: Meredith Howard (212) 982-3900 x267 Government and bureaucracies are bigger and more controlling than ever. A citizen's own ability to control his or her own life has never been less than it is today. How did we get to this point? Jim Bovard, bestselling author of Lost Rights: The Destruction of American Liberty, looks at the development of the State into a behemoth that threatens to destroy the individual at the cost of preserving the idea of "statism" - the belief that government is inherently superior to the citizenry, that progress consists of extending the realm of governmental compulsion, and that vesting more arbitrary power in government officials will eventually make citizens happy. Reading through the history of the state and its war on the citizen, = Bovard looks at thinkers as diverse as John Locke, Etienne de la Boetie, James Madison, and Bernard Bosanquet among others. He explores the original version of the idea of the state, the development of the welfare state, = the progress of the state's judicial system from the original province of the courts into the lives of men and women and the ultimate fraud that is perpetrated as the state's benevolence. Freedom in Chains is must reading for anyone trying to understand how far we've come from our eighteenth century roots as a community of impassioned patriots to our sorry = positions as wards of the state at the end of the twentieth century. James Bovard is a journalist who has written for The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and Newsweek. He is the author of Lost Rights: The Destruction of American Liberty (St. Martin's Press, 1994) ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt@coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per = week) Matthew Gaylor,1933 E. Dublin-Granville Rd.,#176, Columbus, OH 43229 Archived at http://www.reference.com/cgi-bin/pn/listarch?list=3DFA@coil.com= ************************************************************************** ***************************************************** To UNSUBSCRIBE: email majordomo@mapinc.org with this in the body: UNSUBSCRIBE FEAR-list ***************************************************** - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 21:18:01 -0700 From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Lawyers Pick Gun Fight After Tobacco Success, Lawyers Pick Gun Fight Same Tactics Aimed at Firearms Industry By David Segal Washington Post Staff Writer Tuesday, January 5, 1999; Page A01 For the past four years, a team of about 60 law firms from across the country has rented a suite of offices in downtown New Orleans and made it headquarters for the unprecedented legal assault against the tobacco industry. Last week the offices got a make-over for the launch of a new fight -- this time against the gun industry. Cigarette files are being warehoused. Deploying the same tactics it brought to the tobacco wars, the legal collective known as the Castano Group is re-aiming its sights, hoping to earn millions in fees by suing gunmakers on behalf of cities around the nation. The Castano Group is the brainchild of Wendell Gauthier, a mass-injury lawyer who made the first of several fortunes representing victims of hotel fires and plane crashes. In 1994, he persuaded a group of 60 firms to contribute $100,000 each to fund a war room to coordinate lawsuits against the tobacco industry. The suits were based on the then-novel theory that the cigarette companies should pay for the cost incurred by smokers to treat their addiction. Gauthier is now asking the same and other firms to chip in another $100,000 for the gun litigation. About 40 firms have accepted so far, and others are expected to join soon, said John Coale, a District lawyer who is part of the group. The money will cover the cost of depositions and research, as well as a staff of paralegals and time logged by lawyers at Gauthier's firm. Gun manufacturers, meanwhile, are on the verge of hiring corporate defense firms capable of fending off a carefully orchestrated legal attack on a national scale. Among the leading candidates for the job are several firms, including Washington's Covington & Burling, that have toiled for tobacco companies. In sum, it could be deja sue all over again. The virtually inevitable brawl over the gun business will likely feature many of the same combatants and strategies that took center stage in the epic confrontation over tobacco. "It's uncanny," said Stanley Chesley, a Cincinnati lawyer who is part of the Castano Group, "but we just keep running into the same people in this business." In October, New Orleans became the first city to file suit against gunmakers, demanding re dress for the cost of responding to shootings and alleging that companies such as Glock Inc. and Smith & Wesson Corp. failed to install safety devices that would prevent children and unauthorized users from firing guns. Lawyers from the Castano Group, which takes its name from an early tobacco plaintiff, are handling the case on behalf of the city. Chicago followed with its own suit in November, offering other liability theories, and more cities are expected to file soon. A variety of private actions are in the works, too. For critics of the cigarette settlement, the tobacco lawyers' new onslaught fulfills an unhappy prophecy. Well before cigarette makers agreed in November to pay more than $200 billion over 25 years to settle a host of suits brought by attorneys general, Wall Street analysts and others predicted that the money ultimately would fund new lunges at other industries. The Castano team has yet to profit from the tobacco litigation, because it was not party to the actions by the attorneys general and its private class actions are still pending. Still, Castano lawyers such as Coale expect a tobacco payday and are unabashed about what they'll do with the money. "People kept saying that we would go after the alcohol or fast-food industries next," Coale said. "But we'd never do that. We enjoy liquor and meat too much." Meanwhile, several lawyers who scored big in the suits filed by the attorneys general are eyeing the gun issue. For instance, Robert Kerrigan's eight-person firm in Pensacola, Fla., pocketed $200 million for its work on the tobacco settlement, part of a record-setting $3.4 billion in fees shared by a handful of Florida law firms. He and his partners now are considering whether to sue gunmakers, alleging that products such as assault weapons and Saturday night specials have no legitimate use. "I know the business community considers us a bunch of vultures who just got done with one corpse and are looking for another," Kerrigan said. "But the truth is that tobacco had to pay in no small measure because of what we did." Whether the gun litigation turns out to be the next legal gold rush is an open question. Gunmakers aren't nearly as wealthy as the cigarette makers, taking in about $3 billion to $4 billion a year, a fraction of the big tobacco companies' yearly revenue. And Bob Ricker of the American Shooting Sports Council, a trade association for gunmakers, vowed that his members won't be intimidated into an out-of-court settlement, regardless of how many cities line up against them. Ricker also said the swarm of tobacco plaintiffs' lawyers suggests that the suits against the industry are frivolous, the work of an opportunistic gang of legal predators. "We'll be able to show that what these lawyers are actually after is money," he said, a contention certain to become part of the gun manufacturers' defense. Handgun-control advocates contend that the Castano lawyers were the logical choice to assail gunmakers. After all, they say, these lawyers have the requisite expertise, as well as a history of camaraderie in a similar war. "I think it's a natural move on the part of these firms, because they have a great deal of experience dealing with a well-financed industry that has operated in secret for years, markets a lethal product and makes decisions which increase the risk of serious harm to the American people," said Dennis Henigan, legal director of the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence. Though gunmakers traditionally have fought product liability suits independently, they're now awakening to the seriousness of their predicament and discussing a more unified approach. That includes discussions with a number of established defense firms. For veteran corporate lawyers such as Keith Teel of Covington & Burling, who has worked for all four major tobacco firms, gun companies look as if they could be the Next Big Client. "We, like a lot of firms, would be interested in getting involved with it," Teel said. For now, plaintiffs' lawyers are meeting mayors across the country and offering them what could be an irresistible deal: allowing lawyers to sue gunmakers in the name of their city. The towns could end up with millions in settlement dollars without having to spend any money. And the mayors could get a political boost from electorates fed up with gun violence. Castano lawyers say cities such as Tampa, Newark and Baltimore are interested. Coale said he will approach D.C. Mayor Anthony A. Williams as soon as his administration settles in. "We're going to get as many cities as we can and sue under any product-liability theory that happens to fit that jurisdiction," Coale said. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 09:30:52 -0700 From: "David Sagers" Subject: SENATORS NEED A LITTLE RELIEF SOME OF OUR SENATORS NEED A LITTLE RELIEF Wesley Pruden is editor in chief of The Washington Times. January 5, 1999 Quick, someone call 911. They need an emergency supply of grief counselors = in the United States Senate. Some of the senators are on the verge of = cracking under the stress of duty and the responsibility of accountability.= Nary a one came to Washington at the business end of a shotgun, but from = the public way some of them are parading pity for themselves in the guise = of commiseration for the country a bystander might imagine that none is = here voluntarily. The pain of it. The sheer anguish of it all. Such = delicacy of wounded feeling ennobles us everyone. These are the guys and gals who are terrified they might have to perform = one of the duties of a job that pays $136,700 a year in salary and a = million dollars in perks, freebies, stroking and aides and interns to park = the car, fetch the coffee and peel the grapes. But finally there's a duty = they can't delegate. From all the weeping, wailing and gnashing of = store-bought teeth you might think the aide assigned to warm the toilet = seat on cold mornings called in sick. Trent Lott has become the king of the U-turn, with his deference to the = White House and his on-again, off-again determination to make the Senate = do its bounden duty. He's the current darlin' of the president and the = Democrats, who are blistering their hands in applause for his scheme to = make things as easy as possible for Bill Clinton. Some unkind people are = speculating that Trent is about to switch parties just to keep the = accolades coming. (Why should he bother?) Back home in Biloxi and Tupelo, = Hattiesburg and Hot Coffee they're wondering what skeleton the White House = could be rattling at him. His colleagues on both sides of the aisle are competing to see who can cry = the loudest over making the country bear the "agony," the "ordeal," the = "torment," the "suffering," the "torture," the "pain," the "misery," the = "tribulation," the "grief" of an impeachment trial. The country they're talking about survived a revolution, a brutal = four-year Civil War, two World Wars and smaller wars in Cuba, Korea and = Vietnam and a few assorted financial panics, recessions and a killer = depression, but if all 100 members of the Senate have to get up before = noon to go to work as jurors to listen to the evidence, as set out in the = Constitution, we're supposed to be afraid the rivers won't run, the tides = won't work, the fish won't bite, the bacon won't fry, the beans won't = boil, the dogs won't bark, the cotton won't grow and the stock market will = crash. The Jerry Springer Nation, toughened by Oprah and hardened by O.J., = naps unchallenged as the world's only superpower, enjoying unprecedented = prosperity in an era of peace with most of us worried only about where to = park the third car. But we'll suffer meltdown if we have to hear about = Monica's thong panties and Bill's cigar -- presumably unlit -- one more = time. Some of the senators think Trent Lott's scheme, borrowed from a couple of = his colleagues, is brilliant: Take a vote first and consider the evidence, = if at all, later when and if it becomes convenient. This strikes a lot of = people, including even a few senators, as dumb and dumber, which demonstrat= es the difference between them and them. "I don't think that the Senate wants to hear a lot of testimony, particular= ly on matters that are well known," says Sen. Thad Cochran, the senior = Republican senator from Alice-in-Wonderland. "Many of us have read the = Starr referral and some of us have seen the videotape before the grand = jury ... It seems to me you don't have to have a long, drawn-out ordeal of = a trial to get the facts before the Senate." Sen. Robert Torricelli, the Democrat from New Jersey, who recognizes fraud = and chicanery when he sees it and knows when to run away from it, has = taken the temperature of the American people and he has a diagnosis: "I = think the American people are sick of the president's self-indulgent acts = and sexual acts. They're also sick of our self-indulgent acts here in = Washington, of liking this process so much we're keeping it going. They = want their system back." The Torricelli prescription, naturally, is = something to enable frightened senators to indulge in duty-dodging. The effrontery of anyone's objecting to Senate self-indulgence is enough = to make a senator sick. "I think the House of Representatives is making a = terrible mistake, in trying to tell the Senate how to do its business," = sniffs Sen. Patrick Leahy of Vermont, and his Democratic colleague from = Connecticut, Chris Dodd, couldn't agree more: "And it is not appreciated = to be dictated, or suggested, by the House or the White House, on how we = ought to do our business. We don't need a backseat driver to tell us how = to do our business." Not only that, they don't need anybody to notice when they would rather = not do their duty, either. Hicks should go back to the sticks and shut up. = That goes for you, me and everybody else. Wesley Pruden is editor in chief of The Times. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 13:34:41 -0700 From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: [A true story--OR--Urban legends combined] - ----BEGIN FORWARDED MESSGE---- >A friend sent this true story to me: > I know this guy whose neighbor, a young man, was home > recovering from having been served a rat in his bucket of Kentucky > Fried Chicken. So anyway, one day he went to sleep and when he > awoke he was in his bathtub and it was full of ice and he was sore > all over. When he got out of the tub he realized that HIS KIDNEYS > HAD BEEN STOLEN and he saw a note on his mirror that said > "Call 911!" But he was afraid to use his phone because it was > connected to his computer, and there was a virus on his computer > that would destroy his hard drive if he opened an e-mail entitled > "Join the crew!" He knew it wasn't a hoax because he himself was > a computer programmer who was working on software to save us > from Armageddon when the year 2000 rolls around. His program > will prevent a global disaster in which all the computers get > together and distribute the $600 Nieman Marcus cookie recipe > under the leadership of Bill Gates. (It's true-I read it all last week in > a mass e-mail from BILL GATES HIMSELF, who was also > promising me a free Disneyworld vacation and $5,000 if I would > forward the e-mail to everyone I know.) The poor man then tried to > call 911 from a pay phone to report his missing kidneys, but > reaching into the coin-return slot he got jabbed with an HIV-infected > needle around which was wrapped a note that said, "Welcome to > the world of AIDS." Luckily he was only a few blocks from the > hospital-the one, actually, where that little boy who is dying of > cancer is, the one whose last wish is for everyone in the world to > send him an e-mail and the American Cancer Society has agreed > to pay him a nickel for every e-mail he receives. I sent him two e- > mails and one of them was a bunch of x's and o's in the shape of > an angel (if you get it and forward it to twenty people you will have > good luck but ten people you will only have ok luck and if you send > it to less than ten people you will have BAD LUCK FOR SEVEN > YEARS). So anyway the poor guy tried to drive himself to the > hospital, but on the way he noticed another car driving along > without his lights on. To be helpful, he flashed his lights at him and > was promptly shot as part of a gang initiation. And it's a little- > known fact that the Y1K problem caused the Dark Ages. > - ----END FORWARDED MESSAGE---- - -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these things I'm fairly certain 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it. "That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of conscience; or to prevent *the people* of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms ..." -- Samuel Adams in arguing for a Bill of Rights, from the book "Massachusetts," published by Pierce & Hale, Boston, 1850, pg. 86-87. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jan 99 23:58:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Fight back? - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 13:05:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Mike Kemp Subject: Fight back? To: cp@telelists.COM > Thank you very much Mr. Kemp. I thought I was alone. Nope. You're not alone, you are just in the rarified air of the front. What you see before you are your enemies, the masses of the oppressor facing you. And you see the backs of the rare few who are leading. Look to your sides, and you will see allies in growing numbers. Look behind, and you will see the fearful and *civilized,* hiding from reality. Yet the wise among them know that the time is near when they must either support you, join you in the fight-- the gamble of death or freedom-- or kneel and obey and beg mercy from those who would dominate them. It's a war, isn't it? Don't they say so at every opportunity? And haven't they begun to wage war on the civilians? They caused the war by creating a lucrative market in the natural products of the Lord's earth. The oriental lords of opium and the South American cocaine cowboys, who are criminal profiteers, were half-heartedly targeted. The warlords who created the war first escalated to target the peaceful men and women of the earth, those who till the land with their own sweat and labor and ingenuity to bring forth the Lord's good herb. Now they have brought the war to the man in his home who has a few grams of vegetable leaf and flower, assaulting him and his family and bringing terror and ruin to neighborhoods and families. This is, of course, when they actually attack the house which they intended. And even that is not accidental, for it is a terroristic demonstration of power, a reminder to the cowering sheep that their master is in charge, and that the sheep must remain silent and still. The excuse for the massive military raid on the Seventh-Day Adventist Branch Davidians, a community which had lived in peace with their neighbors for decades, was the flimsiest fiction of a methamphetamine lab. They were good Christian folks, so when they broke the assault and the enemy, shocked and disoriented and out of ammo, begged to medevac and leave, they willingly agreed. This was their only mistake. They didn't realize that it was a war ~on the gentle and the loving, the unresisting. *There are cases which cannot be overdone by language, and this is one. There are persons too who see not the full extent of the evil that threatens them; they solace themselves with hopes that the enemy, if they succeed, will be merciful. It is the madness of folly to expect mercy from those who have refused to do justice; and even mercy, where conquest is the object, is only a trick of war. The cunning of the fox is as murderous as the violence of the wolf, and we ought to guard equally against both.* Thomas Paine, The American Crisis No. 1, December 19, 1776-- the Valley Forge Winter. How much worse off would the Davidians have been, had they stacked a hundred naked ATF corpses on the front lawn of their property, and told Unca Sham to come collect his servants' bodies, and then obliterated those who came for the corpses? After all, they were gassed and burned in their homes for being righteous and merciful. So, folks, realize the full extent of the evil which threatens you. I hear alleged, and on the rarest of occasions, find a *law enforcement* type who is an *honest and decent man.* And these *honest men* turn a blind eye to the cowboy cowards who prey on Us, the People. They are typically older folks, unskilled and hoping for retirement. How honest are they, how righteous are they, to maintain their association with an enterprise gone rogue and criminal? When one flies with crows, one must be prepared to be shot with crows... Juries, carefully selected to be blind, cud-chewing idiots devoid of mind and spirit and conscience, convict their fellow men, imprison them and rob them and destroy their lives for things which they themselves have done and do, because hizzoner the black robed whore tells them to. Hizzoner the whore and his pimp the District Attorney pursue this course for personal aggrandizement. The whore and the pimp are known in the community, stand for election and print flyers with pictures of themselves and their families. The legislators who pander to the lowest of public opinion do the same, as do the mayors and commissioners and sheriffs. Po-leeces put little badges on the tags of their cars, tags which are the symbols of state ownership of the cars which are paid for by the operators but controlled by the state. These little badges, Fraternal Order of Police symbols, are the symbols of immunity, which allow their wives and children and themselves to violate traffic regulations and pass through *roadblocks* with impunity. These criminal predators are known and recognizable; if we are so spineless and lickspittle that we allow them to live fearlessly among us, to prey on us, to live a privileged life as honored and elevated servants of our masters in government, then we deserve our groveling fate. These are the times that try men's souls; the summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of his country; but he that stands it NOW deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly. 'Tis dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to set a proper price on its goods, and it would be strange indeed, if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated. [Unca Sham] with an army to enforce tyranny, has declared, that [he] has a right (not only to TAX) but to bind us in all cases whatsoever, and if being bound in that manner is not slavery, then is there not such a thing as slavery upon earth. Even the expression is impious, for so unlimited a power can belong only to God. - --Thomas Paine, American Crisis No. 1, paraphrased. Has anything changed? William Michael Kemp 1/6/99 repost as desired - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 10:37:28 -0700 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: Responses to Klinton Defenders. Received: from wvc ([204.246.130.34]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Thu, 07 Jan 1999 09:51:58 -0700 Received: from listbox.com by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA13944; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:37:47 -0700 Received: (qmail 3441 invoked by uid 516); 7 Jan 1999 16:49:23 -0000 Delivered-To: rkba-co@majordomo.pobox.com Received: (qmail 3294 invoked from network); 7 Jan 1999 16:49:01 -0000 Received: from blackhole.dimensional.com (0@208.206.176.10) by majordomo.pobox.com with SMTP; 7 Jan 1999 16:49:01 -0000 Received: from flatland.dimensional.com (sendmail@flatland.dimensional.com [208.206.176.24]) by blackhole.dimensional.com (8.8.8/8.8.nospam) with ESMTP id JAA04404; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:48:45 -0700 (MST) Received: (from telecon@localhost) by flatland.dimensional.com (8.8.8/8.8.nospam) id JAA24148; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:48:42 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <19990107094842.14967@dimensional.com> Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:48:42 -0700 From: telecon To: guns-l@dimensional.com Cc: rkba-co@listbox.com Subject: Responses to Klinton Defenders. X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 Sender: owner-rkba-co.new@majordomo.pobox.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rkba-co@majordomo.pobox.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Posted to rkba-co by telecon - ----------------------- - -----Forwarded message from John Fussell ----- I am sick of all the lame ass excuses made for the Liar in Chief*President Dangle* and the Vice Perpetrator, Al Gore* Below is a list of excuses Clintonistas give me and my light hearted answers * If you are sick of = their whining and excuses for the actions of Bill Clinton then use them often , you have my permission: 1. This is just about a president having a private affair. This is about the right of a president to molest innocent American women, attack her with taxpayer-paid attorneys if she dares to complain, = and lie under oath to a Grand Jury when she finally gets her day in court. = Where are those civil rights Democrats say they are fighting for! 2. This is just about sex. Rape is just about sex, robbery is just about money, murder is just a misunderstanding. 3. Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinski testified that they didn't have sex = and nobody told her to lie. So, if they both lie, that makes it the truth? 4. According to his personal definition of sex, he doesn't think he lied. So, therefore, he didn't lie. You mean a criminal now has the right to redefine his crime? What a novel legal concept! "I didn't steal the money, I borrowed it. I didn't = rape her, I borrowed her. I didn't kill him, your honor, his head hit my = baseball bat." 5. He may have committed perjury, but he shouldn't be impeached. Tell me, what crime can a president commit? 6. Does this rise to the level of impeachment? Gee, let's see, perjury, obstruction of justice, witness tampering, abuse of power. Impeachment? This rises to the level of jail! At least it did for 327 ordinary American citizens and 89 military men and women last year. 7. The economy is doing great. So, the better the economy, the more crimes he can commit? If we get 5% growth, do we allow a president to knock off a liquor store? And I ask you* besides sign on to Republican ideas WHAT HAS BILL CLINTON REALLY DONE!!!! Better thank Alan Greenspan, the Republican Congress, Republican= Governors, and the few Democrats still with good sense than Bill Clinton. 8. We need his leadership. It's impossible to lead the country when you can't follow the laws of the land. And how can he keep the vows he sworn to as President when he can*t even keep the ones he made to Hillary. We see now he didn*t and can*t. 9. A panel of historians say he should stay in office. A panel of liberal historians from liberal colleges who love liberal presidents and Government money. They know which side their bread is buttered. 10. Distinguished professors say he shouldn't be impeached. The only thing distinguishable about them is their blind love of the Democratic party....and Karl Marx. 11. We should forgive Clinton. I can forgive the drunk bus driver who goes over the cliff with a busload of kids. But, I'll take away his license. Forgiveness and punishment are = to different things. 12. This will put the country through hell. When a president breaks the law, the country goes through hell. Besides = ever notice how rosy the media reports everything as soon as Bill got in = office. I remember if Reagan or Bush went to a city where a thousand people were there to see them all you saw on the evening news was the handful of demonstrators that showed up* CNN=3DClinton News Network, CBS=3DClinton Broadcasting System, ABC=3DAnything But Conservatives 13. This will damage the nation. It already is damaged because of his behavior as President. Oh, so just let the president keep breaking the law. That's better? 14. The Republicans caused this. Bill Clinton caused this. 15. Republicans are just being partisan. Democrats are defending a lawbreaking president from their own part. Who = is being partisan? To the Democrat "fair" means go along with their bankrupt idea*s another 40 years* 16. This is part of a Great Right Wing Conspiracy. The Republicans couldn't organize a barbecue. 17. The Rodino hearings were fair. Rodino was canned because he was blatantly partisan. Fortunately, the = 1970s Republicans were willing to punish a lawbreaking president from their own party. The 1990s Democrats are defending a lawbreaking president from their own party. 18. Hillary has shown what a strong woman she is. If Hillary were a strong woman, she'd have left him. She is a horrible = role model for young women. 19. Other nations are laughing at us. Other nations don't take baths. Other nations let their leaders rape thier women. Others nations use nerve gas on their own people. Other nations = kill citizens who dissent. Other nations suck. America is the greatest nation = on earth because the Constitiution says that we all obey the same laws. 20. The polls show most of the nation wants him to stay in office. The polls didn't support the civil rights laws, either. Should we revoke them? 21. Last election, the people spoke and told us they don't want impeachment= . Bill Clinton wasn't running in the last election. And, if anyone paid attention, there was a 13% swing of women voting towards Republicans. 22. Republicans shouldn't impeach while our troops are in harms way. Bow Wow Wow! 23. Instead of impeachment, we should censure. Censure? For Bill Clinton, that's a checkered flag! Censuring a president isn't even in the Constitution. But since when does a Democrat read the Constitution? The much used "separation of church and state" isn*t either but again when do liberals read the Constitution. 24. Maybe something a little tougher than censure...... A little tougher than censure? OK. We'll make him stand in the corner = during recess. That's tougher than censure. 25. A president shouldn't be above the law, but he shouldn't be below the law. OK. Then give him the same punishment all Americans get when they commit perjury, sixteen months in jail. 26. 40 million dollars and all we have is this? If Clinton told the truth, this investigation would have cost a couple hundred bucks and a box of pizza. 27. He's sorry. He's sorry he got caught. 28. He apologized. He hasn't admitted his crime. 29. He is a popularly elected president. So was Nixon. - -----End of forwarded message----- - --=20 It takes a Bill Clinton to father a village. If the Constitution meant for people to carry arms for defense, it would have said "The right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" Oh, yeah.... http://www.scientology-kills.net For Help with Majordomo Commands, please send a message to: Majordomo@majordomo.pobox.com with the word Help in the body of the message - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 13:55:57 -0700 From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Guns on trial again.. http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=2557925079-c4d > [INFOBEAT | ][Profile | ][Feedback | ][About | ][Terms | ][Custom] > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > [Image] > [Click on Ad -- Support InfoBeat's Free Services] > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > 01:27 AM ET 01/07/99 > > Gun Industry Accused of Negligence > > Gun Industry Accused of Negligence > By TOM HAYS= > Associated Press Writer= > NEW YORK (AP) _ Nearly five years after 16-year-old Robert > Robles was slain during a fight over a neighborhood baseball game, > his death has raised a high-stakes question in a federal courtroom: > Was it the gun industry's fault? > The families of Robles and six other shooting victims have sued > the firearms industry, accusing dozens of manufacturers and > distributors of feeding an underground market that puts guns in the > hands of criminals. > ``This is a simple case about accepting responsibility,'' > plaintiffs' attorney Elisa Barnes told jurors as the trial opened > Wednesday. > Industry lawyer Anne Kimball countered by labeling the suit an > attempt to ``to shift the blame away from the cold-blooded killers > in this case.'' > The lawsuit _ brought in 1995 by Freddie Hamilton, a Brooklyn > woman whose son was gunned down two years earlier _ is viewed as a > precursor to upcoming legal challenges by cities hoping to recover > the costs of gun violence. > The suit's central claim is that about 30 gun manufacturers and > 15 gun distributors ``oversupply'' certain markets where gun laws > are lax, all the while knowing that the extra guns end up in the > hands of criminals in states with stricter controls _ like New > York. > The plaintiffs are seeking unspecified damages. > Among those expected to testify is Stephen Fox, 19, the sole > survivor among the seven victims. Fox _ who still has a bullet > lodged in his head _ was shot by a neighbor who had bought the > handgun off the black market, Barnes told jurors. > ``I'm going to ask you why was that gun so easily available, out > of the trunk of a car, on a street in Queens,'' she said. > The defense said gun manufacturers should not be held > accountable for criminal sale and use of a heavily regulated item. > ``Guns used in crimes are bad _ we're all in agreement on > that,'' Kimball said. ``Nonetheless, guns are a legal, legitimate > product in America ... This case is not a referendum on handguns.'' > Lawyers for Smith & Wesson Corp., Beretta USA Corp., Ruger & > Co., Accu-Tek and the other defendants also complained that the > plaintiffs have never conclusively linked the weapons used to harm > their relatives to specific gun manufacturers. > But U.S. District Court Judge Jack Weinstein has allowed the > plaintiffs to argue the ``chain of title'' is irrelevant. What > matters, they argue, is that the industry creates a widespread risk > with indiscriminate marketing _ a concept know as collective > liability. > Chicago Mayor Richard M. Daley used similar logic in filing a > $433 million lawsuit against the firearms industry late last year. > That suit accuses gun makers of saturating his city with more > weapons than could ever be sold to law-abiding citizens. > New Orleans is pursuing a similar suit, while other cities, > including Los Angeles, Philadelphia and Baltimore, are also > considering taking gun makers to court. > - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 00:55:09 -0700 From: "S. Thompson" Subject: JAMA Letter to the Editor re: Wintemute et al. This is too good not to share...... January 7, 1999 Tom Cole MD Editor, JAMA 550 N. State Street Chicago, IL 60610 Re: Wintemute GJ, Drake CM, Beuamont JJ, Wright MA, Parham CA. "Prior Misdemeanor Convictions as a Risk Factor for Later Violent and Firearm-Related Criminal Activity Among Authorized Purchasers of Handguns." JAMA December 23/30, 1998; 280(24) 2083-2087. Dear Dr. Cole, "In total, during the first eighty years of this century, almost 170 million men, women, and children have been shot beaten, tortured, knifed, burned, starved, frozen, crushed, or worked to death; buried alive, drowned, hung, bombed or killed in any of the myriad ways governments have inflicted death on _unarmed_, helpless citizens and foreigners. The dead could conceivably be nearly 360 million people. It is as though our species has been devastated by a modern Black Plague. And indeed it has, but a plague of Power, not germs."[1] [emphasis added] Gun control advocates, like Wintemute, who incrementally condition us towards a State monopoly on weapons are in denial that the murderous and enormous horror of State crime dwarfs all private crime. Others may dignify Wintemute's latest results-oriented polemic by delineating its myriad flaws. We choose instead to spotlight the utter hypocrisy in JAMA's publication of this inane piece. Would JAMA take it seriously if Neal Knox conducted research funded by Gun Owners of America, published it in The American Rifleman, claimed to support National Rifle Association goals, and was accompanied by an editorial by Charlton Heston? I would think not. So please do not be surprised that we see no "science" when gun ban activists posing as objective researchers, funded by some of the deepest pockets in the gun ban lobby,[2] publish an article purporting to support further gun control in a magazine that proselytizes gun control, all-too-fittingly accompanied by Sarah Brady's editorial. So, Wintemute thinks that society might be served by keeping UC Davis medical students who moon their professors, Lousianans who sell chickens on the Sabbath, and Arkansasans who have oral sex from owning guns. Only for the most serious crimes should we whittle away at the pool of armed Americans who can keep criminals, crazies, and would-be tyrants in awe. Arguably it is America's armed populace that has provided us some protection from the State. Except for the eloquent 1/3 billion dead at the hands of the governments this century, the familiar antics and artifice of these missionaries and propagandists of gun control would be laughable, but instead of laughing, we weep for the dead. Respectfully, Edgar A. Suter MD National Chair Doctors for Integrity in Policy Research Inc. 5201 Norris Canyon Road, Suite 220 San Ramon, CA 94583 USA voice 925-277-0333 FAX 925-277-1568 [1] Rummel RJ. Death by Government. New Brunswick: Transaction Publishers. 1994. p.9. [2]According to Foster S. "New Health Foundation Writes Prescription for Big Government." Organizational Trends. Washington DC: Capitol Research Group. August 1996., the innocently-named California Wellness Foundation is the deepest pocket of all gun ban pressure groups, targeting California alone with $25 million (over twice the NRA's national lobbying budget) proselytizing stringent gun control under its also innocently-named "Violence Prevention Initiative." - - ------------------------------ End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #119 ***********************************