From: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com (utah-firearms-digest) To: utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: utah-firearms-digest V2 #126 Reply-To: utah-firearms-digest Sender: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk utah-firearms-digest Saturday, February 13 1999 Volume 02 : Number 126 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:01:43 -0700 From: "larry larsen" Subject: Re: Concealed Guns Will Still Go to Church, School Just the world council of churches the LDS church does not belong. Larry - -----Original Message----- From: S. Thompson To: Scott Bergeson Cc: utah-firearms@xmission.com Date: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 2:54 PM Subject: Re: Concealed Guns Will Still Go to Church, School >Thanks, Scott! > >The Coalition of Religious Communities claims to represent "most major >faiths in Utah", so I'd assume someone from the LDS Church is a member. In >my opinion, their representative epitomizes the very absence of religious >values. She's arrogant, unwilling to discuss other points of view, knows >EXACTLY what everyone else "should" do, and presumes that she is the final >arbiter of what constitutes "proper" worship. She even went to far as to >imply that for children to see their parents carrying firearms constituted >some sort of "child abuse". > >What hasn't been published (nor will it ever be) is the tone of the >dialogue at the hearing. The anti-gun people were unanimous that gun >owners are some sort of "vermin" who should not be allowed to participate >in civilized society. "We don't want _those_ people in places like schools >or churches" sort of nonsense. It sure sounded like "hate speech" to me. > >Personally, I'm sick of it. I'm tired of being treated like a cockroach >when I'm a law abiding citizen who takes responsibility for myself and my >family. I DO belong in schools, my synagogue, and even the Olympics. I'm >certainly more law-abiding than the members of the IOC/SLOC - and they get >bodyguards. > >I think it's time we all get off the back of the bus and just say NO to gun >control. > >Sarah > >At 11:20 AM 2/10/99 -0700, you wrote: >>Notice that, like on Elder Jensen's interview where he called >>for a multi-party system but Dan Harrie changed that to allege >>support for the "two-party system", Dan Harrie continues to lie. >>He knows quite well that homeowners and church officials have >>full authority to ban anything they like from their premises, >>and that this bill would instead ban guns from homes and churches >>unless both the gun and home/meetinghouse owners jump through >>numerous hoops in advance. He also spins the polls by not >>accurately reporting the questions asked and the responses >>given. >> >>Notice also that iodine-grabber LaMont Tyler was the sole >>Republican voting for this bill, and that Dave Jones openly >>admits he is not concerned about crimes of violence in churches >>and schools. Perhaps these five scoundrels (the three Democrats >>on the Committee in addition to Tyler and Jones) actually favor >>them? Kudos to the eight decent members of the House Judiciary >>Committee. >> >>BTW, what is "the Coalition of Religious Communities"? >>Is the LDS Corporation of the President on it? >> >>Scott >> >>http://www.sltrib.com/02101999/politics/politics.htm >> >>Utah Politics >>Concealed Guns Will Still Go to Church, School >> >>BY DAN HARRIE THE SALT LAKE TRIBUNE >> >>Utah lawmakers on Tuesday rejected public opinion polls and defeated a >>bill that would ban concealed weapons from schools and churches and give >>homeowners and Olympic venues clear authority to prohibit firearms. >> >>"We have a responsibility to not do just what is popular at the moment >>but to push principles that are wise and just," said Rep. John Swallow, >>R-Sandy. >> >>Swallow joined with seven other members of the House Judiciary Committee >>to defeat House Bill 92 on a 8-4 vote. All three Democrats on the >>committee and Republican Rep. LaMont Tyler, chairman of the panel, voted >>for the measure. >> >>Polls have consistently shown the majority of Utahns favor prohibiting >>firearms from schools and churches. >> >>Supporting the bill sponsored by Minority Leader Dave Jones, D-Salt Lake >>City, was Republican Gov. Mike Leavitt, the Utah PTA, the Coalition of >>Religious Communities and the state Commission on Criminal and Juvenile >>Justice. >> >>But gun-rights proponents clearly had the numbers at Tuesday's public >>hearing, with more than 100 people jammed into the Capitol room and >>spilling out into the hallway. >> >>"Not one child will be safer because of this bill," insisted Rob Bishop, >>gun lobbyist and chairman of the Utah Republican Party. "You may feel >>warm and fuzzy inside, but it doesn't solve the problem" of violence in >>schools or other places. >> >>Retired Salt Lake City police Lt. Dennis Tueller called it "foolishness" >>to prohibit legally licensed concealed firearms in schools and churches. >> >>"We're giving the predators in society a better target zone for them >>to attack," Tueller said. >> >>But sponsor Jones countered that his measure did not seek to eliminate >>the right to carry concealed weapons, just to impose some modest >>restrictions. >> >>"There are some places that guns just don't need to be," Jones said. >>"I don't believe guns belong in schools." >> >>Jones said the main purpose of his proposal was to prevent accidental >>shootings, not crimes of violence. >> >>Gun-rights advocates repeatedly have challenged those in favor of >>restrictions to point out any examples of injuries or death caused >>by Utah's approximately 22,000 licensed concealed-weapons carriers. >> >>Utah PTA lobbyist Paula Plant recounted several instances where >>concealed weapons had caused safety concerns in schools. >> >>In one case, a substitute teacher took out his concealed weapon and >>showed it to his class, Plant said. Another time, a parent carrying >>a concealed weapon displayed the gun to a teacher during a conference >>and suggested the teacher should act in a certain way. >> >>"Those kinds of situations do not make children feel safe in school," >>said Plant, and she questioned the training of concealed-permit holders. >> >>Linda Hilton, director of the Coalition of Religious Communities, evoked >>morality in her pleas to keep guns out of churches. >> >>"It is morally the right thing for you to do," Hilton said. "Bringing a >>weapon into a holy and sacred place violates everything that a holy and >>sacred place stands for." >> >>Copyright 1999, The Salt Lake Tribune > > >- > > - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Feb 99 07:15:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: FW: ALERT!!! TIME TO KILL SB 122!!! - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:14:22 -0700 From: Jim Dexter To: LPUtah Forum Subject: FW: ALERT!!! TIME TO KILL SB 122!!! Now that HB 92 is dead, it's time to kill its evil twin. - ---------- TIME TO KILL SB 122!!! Ok, folks, Waddoups will not completely destroy the bill and it may come up as early as THIS Friday. We hope the rest of the Senate and House will hear the voice of Utahns. Let's move on a quick education campaign. Quietly, convincingly, and firmly engage your Senator and Representative in dialogue and attempt to bring him to our side. We now need to: (1) Blitz the ENTIRE SENATE AND HOUSE with e-mail messages (addresses below). Tell them to look out for -- and vote no on -- SB 122. Keep in mind that this bill will probably pass the Senate. The true battle will likely be in the House; (2) Make personal phone calls, e-mails, faxes, letters, and visits to YOUR SENATOR AND REPRESENTATIVE (numbers below). Attempt to engage them as meaningfully and as often as you can; (3) Press the Senate Energy, Natural Resources and Agriculture committee members with additional e-mails. These people tend to fall in the leftist-elitist category and might best be approached with arguments that center on their pride. For instance, the Olympic Commander will not have much in the way of legislative oversight: bevans@le.state.ut.us (Beverly Ann Evans) Lblackha@le.state.ut.us (Leonard Blackham) jhull@le.state.ut.us (Joseph Hull) mpeterso@le.state.ut.us (Millie Peterson) ljones@le.state.ut.us (Lorin Jones) Remember, we don't deserve to be treated like criminals or second class citizens -- we are law-abiding Utahns. In Utah's history of concealed weapons permits, not one concealed weapons permit holder has EVER committed a violent crime. NOT ONE. We don't need an Olympic Commander to lord over us and our legislature, we don't need gun control, and we don't need SB 122. DO NOT PROCRASTINATE! Start now and do something every day until this bill is dead! House Address: Senate phone: (801) 538-1035 Senate fax: (801) 538-1414 House phone: (801) 538-1029 House fax: (801) 538-1908 HOUSE Gadair@le.state.ut.us (Gerry Adair) Jalexand@le.state.ut.us (Jeff Alexander) sallen@le.state.ut.us (Sheryl Allen) eanderso@le.state.ut.us (Eli Anderson) parent@le.state.ut.us (Patrice Arent) lbaca@le.state.ut.us (Loretta Baca) tbeck@le.state.ut.us (Trisha Beck) rbecker@le.state.ut.us (Ralph Becker) cbennion@le.state.ut.us (Chad Bennion) rbigelow@le.state.ut.us (Ron Bigelow) jbiskups@le.state.ut.us (Jackie Biskupski) dbourdea@le.state.ut.us (Duane Bourdeaux) dbowman@le.state.ut.us (DeMar Bowman) abradsha@le.state.ut.us (Afton Bradshaw) mbrown@le.state.ut.us (Mel Brown) kbryson@le.state.ut.us (Katherine Bryson) pbuckner@le.state.ut.us (Perry Buckner) jbuffmir@le.state.ut.us (Judy Buffmire) dbush@le.state.ut.us (Don Bush) cbuttars@le.state.ut.us (Craig Buttars) mcarlson@le.state.ut.us (Mary Carlson) bchard@le.state.ut.us (Blake Chard) dcox@le.state.ut.us (David N. Cox) gcox@le.state.ut.us (Gary Cox) gcurtis@le.state.ut.us (Greg Curtis) mdayton@le.state.ut.us (Margaret Dayton) mdillree@le.state.ut.us (Marda Dillree) cduckwor@le.state.ut.us (Carl W. Duckworth) bferry@le.state.ut.us (Ben C. Ferry) ffife@le.state.ut.us (Fred J. Fife) lfrandse@le.state.ut.us (Lloyd Frandsen) kgarn@le.state.ut.us (Kevin Garn) dgladwel@le.state.ut.us (David Gladwell) bgoodfel@le.state.ut.us (Brent Goodfellow) jgowans@le.state.ut.us (James Gowans) nhansen@le.state.ut.us (Neil A. Hansen) wharper@le.state.ut.us (Wayne Harper) thatch@le.state.ut.us (Thomas Hatch) nhendric@le.state.ut.us (Neal Hendrickson) jhickman@le.state.ut.us (Bill Hickman) dhogue@le.state.ut.us (Dave Hogue) kholdawa@le.state.ut.us (Kory M. Holdaway) bhollada@le.state.ut.us (Bryan Holladay) diverson@le.state.ut.us (Dennis Iverson) bjohnson@le.state.ut.us (Bradley Johnson) kjohnson@le.state.ut.us (Keele Johnson) djones@le.state.ut.us (David Jones) bking@le.state.ut.us (Brad King) skoehn@le.state.ut.us (Susan Koehn) blockhar@le.state.ut.us (Becky Lockhart) kmorgan@le.state.ut.us (Karen W. Morgan) jmurray@le.state.ut.us (Joseph Murray) lnelson@le.state.ut.us (Lowell Nelson) lpace@le.state.ut.us (Loraine Pace) trowan@le.state.ut.us (Tammy Rowan) Csaunder@le.state.ut.us (Carl Saunders) jseitz@le.state.ut.us (Jack Seitz) Rshort@le.state.ut.us (Ray Short) lshurtli@le.state.ut.us (Lou Shurtliff) rsiddowa@le.state.ut.us (Richard Siddoway) gsnow@le.state.ut.us (Gordon Snow) msnow@le.state.ut.us (Marlon O. Snow) mstephen@le.state.ut.us (Martin Stephens) nstephen@le.state.ut.us (Nora Stephens) mstyler@le.state.ut.us (Michael Styler) jswallow@le.state.ut.us (John Swallow) jtanner@le.state.ut.us (Jordan Tanner) mthrockm@le.state.ut.us (Matt Throckmorton) atyler@le.state.ut.us (Lamont Tyler) dure@le.state.ut.us (David Ure) rwalsh@le.state.ut.us (Richard Walsh) gway@le.state.ut.us (Glenn Way) bwright@le.state.ut.us (Bill Wright) dzolman@le.state.ut.us (David Zolman) SENATE eallen@le.state.ut.us (Edgar Allen) rallen@le.state.ut.us (Ron Allen) lbeattie@le.state.ut.us (Lane Beattie) Lblackha@le.state.ut.us (Leonard Blackham) gdavis@le.state.ut.us (Gene Davis) mdmitric@le.state.ut.us (Mike Dmitrich) bevans@le.state.ut.us (Beverly Ann Evans) mevans@le.state.ut.us (Mont Evans) khale@le.state.ut.us (Karen Hale) phellewe@le.state.ut.us (Parley G. Hellewell) lhillyar@le.state.ut.us (Lyle Hillyard) Showell@le.state.ut.us (Scott Howell) jhull@le.state.ut.us (Joseph Hull) ljones@le.state.ut.us (Lorin Jones) pjulande@le.state.ut.us (Paula F. Julander) pknudson@le.state.ut.us (Peter C. Knudson) amansell@le.state.ut.us (Al Mansell) emayne@le.state.ut.us (Ed Mayne) rmontgom@le.state.ut.us (Robert Montgomery) rmuhlest@le.state.ut.us (Robert Muhlestein) hnielson@le.state.ut.us (Howard Nielson) mpeterso@le.state.ut.us (Millie Peterson) spoulton@le.state.ut.us (Steven Poulton) tspencer@le.state.ut.us (Terry Spencer) dsteele@le.state.ut.us (David Steele) hstephen@le.state.ut.us (Howard Stephenson) psuazo@le.state.ut.us (Pete Suazo) jvalenti@le.state.ut.us (John Valentine) mwaddoup@le.state.ut.us (Michael Waddoups) - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Feb 99 07:15:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Dan Harrie lies again! Notice that, like on Elder Jensen's interview where he called for a multi-party system but Dan Harrie changed that to allege support for the "two-party system", Dan Harrie continues to lie. He knows quite well that homeowners and church officials have full authority to ban anything they like from their premises, and that this bill would instead ban guns from homes and churches unless both the gun and home/meetinghouse owners jump through numerous hoops in advance. He also spins the polls by not accurately reporting the questions asked and the responses given. Notice also that iodine-grabber LaMont Tyler was the sole Republican voting for this bill, and that Dave Jones openly admits he is not concerned about crimes of violence in churches and schools. Perhaps these five scoundrels (the three Democrats on the Committee in addition to Tyler and Jones) actually favor them? Kudos to the eight decent members of the House Judiciary Committee. BTW, what is "the Coalition of Religious Communities"? Is the LDS Corporation of the President on it? Scott http://www.sltrib.com/02101999/politics/politics.htm Utah Politics Concealed Guns Will Still Go to Church, School BY DAN HARRIE THE SALT LAKE TRIBUNE Utah lawmakers on Tuesday rejected public opinion polls and defeated a bill that would ban concealed weapons from schools and churches and give homeowners and Olympic venues clear authority to prohibit firearms. "We have a responsibility to not do just what is popular at the moment but to push principles that are wise and just," said Rep. John Swallow, R-Sandy. Swallow joined with seven other members of the House Judiciary Committee to defeat House Bill 92 on a 8-4 vote. All three Democrats on the committee and Republican Rep. LaMont Tyler, chairman of the panel, voted for the measure. Polls have consistently shown the majority of Utahns favor prohibiting firearms from schools and churches. Supporting the bill sponsored by Minority Leader Dave Jones, D-Salt Lake City, was Republican Gov. Mike Leavitt, the Utah PTA, the Coalition of Religious Communities and the state Commission on Criminal and Juvenile Justice. But gun-rights proponents clearly had the numbers at Tuesday's public hearing, with more than 100 people jammed into the Capitol room and spilling out into the hallway. "Not one child will be safer because of this bill," insisted Rob Bishop, gun lobbyist and chairman of the Utah Republican Party. "You may feel warm and fuzzy inside, but it doesn't solve the problem" of violence in schools or other places. Retired Salt Lake City police Lt. Dennis Tueller called it "foolishness" to prohibit legally licensed concealed firearms in schools and churches. "We're giving the predators in society a better target zone for them to attack," Tueller said. But sponsor Jones countered that his measure did not seek to eliminate the right to carry concealed weapons, just to impose some modest restrictions. "There are some places that guns just don't need to be," Jones said. "I don't believe guns belong in schools." Jones said the main purpose of his proposal was to prevent accidental shootings, not crimes of violence. Gun-rights advocates repeatedly have challenged those in favor of restrictions to point out any examples of injuries or death caused by Utah's approximately 22,000 licensed concealed-weapons carriers. Utah PTA lobbyist Paula Plant recounted several instances where concealed weapons had caused safety concerns in schools. In one case, a substitute teacher took out his concealed weapon and showed it to his class, Plant said. Another time, a parent carrying a concealed weapon displayed the gun to a teacher during a conference and suggested the teacher should act in a certain way. "Those kinds of situations do not make children feel safe in school," said Plant, and she questioned the training of concealed-permit holders. Linda Hilton, director of the Coalition of Religious Communities, evoked morality in her pleas to keep guns out of churches. "It is morally the right thing for you to do," Hilton said. "Bringing a weapon into a holy and sacred place violates everything that a holy and sacred place stands for." Copyright 1999, The Salt Lake Tribune - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Feb 99 07:15:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Re: Concealed Guns Will Still Go to Church, School On Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:54:29 -0700 S. Thompson replied: > The Coalition of Religious Communities claims to represent "most major > faiths in Utah", so I'd assume someone from the LDS Church is a member. I'll call them and the Church to ask. If anyone already knows or beats me to it, please copy to scott.bergeson@m.cc.utah.edu. The Coalition of Religious Communities is located at 347 S. 400 East, 364-7765. From what I gather, 16 denominations in Utah are represented, among which are the Christ United Methodist Church at 2375 E. 3300 South, the Park City Community Church, and Our Saviour's Lutheran Church at 2500 E. 3900 South. > I DO belong in ... my synagogue. What is your synagogue's (the officials', since buildings don't have attitudes) view towards worshippers being armed, and these bills, and is it or a parent body a member of the Coalition? Scott - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Feb 99 06:02:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: FW: Text for GOUtah! Leg alert #4 for 10 Feb 1999 1/2 - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, Feb 10, 1999, 11:00 PM From: Gavin Wallace To: GOUtah3006@aol.com Subject: Text for GOUtah! Leg alert #4 for 10 Feb 1999 GOUtah! Gun Owners of Utah Utah's Uncompromising, Independent Gun Rights Network. No Compromise. No Retreat. No Surrender. Not Now. Not Ever. Today's Maxim of Liberty: What we obtain too cheap we esteem too lightly - 'tis dearness that gives everything its value. - -Thomas Paine In order to better serve the Utah firearms owner, we're revising our GOUtah! legislative alert format. Beginning with this issue, we'll be giving you a shorter daily update of the changes in status, committee hearing and floor votes scheduled and action required on time-critical bills and issues. At the end of every week we'll provide you with a full review of the past week's events, status of all bills being monitored and a preview of what to expect in the coming week. We ll also hold our major policy and support materials for the week-in-review issues. This will help us cut down on the transmission time for our fax alerts, which is taking nearly 20 hours each day due to the large volume of subscribers. We are also working on establishing a website for GOUtah!, which you will be able to access anytime day on night to get the latest updates and to get back issues of these alerts and other important information on firearms freedom in Utah. We'll keep you posted! If you wish to continue to receive this information under the GOUtah! banner, you need to do nothing. If you wish to be added to or taken off the GOUtah! list, please send an e-mail to GOUtah3006@aol.com or send a fax to (801) 944-9937 asking to be added to or removed from the GOUtah! list. If you wish to forward or share this copyrighted information with others, you are welcome to do so, on the condition that you pass along the entire document intact and unmodified, and that GOUtah! is clearly indicated as the original source of the material. Thank you. Now, let's all get to work! Our rights and freedoms need to be protected today! GOUtah! Political and Legislative Alert #4- 10 Feb.1999 Utah State Legislature You may reach your Utah State Legislator at the following numbers: Utah House of Representatives: Phone (801) 538-1029 or Fax (801) 538-1908 Utah State Senate: Phone (801) 538-1035 or Fax (801) 538-1414 Utah State Legislature Website: www.le.state.ut.us The Utah State Legislature is now in session and considering the following gun-related bills: Utah State House of Representatives HB 92 - Weapons and Explosives Restrictions on Private Property, Schools Churches and Olympic Venues.- Rep. David Jones (D-Dist. 25) Recommended Position: Strongest Possible Opposition Status: Tabled in hearing before the House Judiciary Committee- Next Committee meeting 8:00AM Thursday 11 February 1999 in Room 223 of the Utah State Capitol. Action Required: Contact your Utah State Representative at (801) 538-1029 or by E-mail asking them to STRONGLY OPPOSE any further restrictions as to place, time or circumstances on the ability of Utah's gun owners or CCW holders to possess firearms for any lawful purposes. STATUS UPDATE AS OF NOON 9 FEB 1999: Due in great part to your combined efforts, in the House Judiciary Committee hearing of 9 February 1999, HB 92 was tabled on a vote of 7 to 4. Reported as voting against our position and in favor of moving the bill out of committee were Reps. Gary Cox, Neal Hendrickson, Patrice Arent and Lamont Tyler. Making the motion to table the bill was Rep. Bill Hickman. This means HB 92 is in 'limbo,' and it will appear on the future Judiciary Committee agendas. There it will remain like a smoldering bomb until it is sent back to Rules Committee or lifted from the table by a 2/3rds vote of the committee and either defeated or passed out of the House Judiciary Committee. This action means after all the crowds leave, committee members may act out of the glare of the public and media spotlight. Only one other bill is on the Judiciary Committee's agenda for their next meeting on Thursday, 11 February 1999 8:00AM in Room 223 at the Capitol. This one could blow up again at any time. IT IS CRITICAL THAT EVERYONE IMMEDIATELY CONTACT THE FOLLOWING HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE MEMBERS: Reps. Glenn Way, Chad Bennion, Katherine Bryson, Greg Curtis, Bill Hickman, Marty Stephens, John Swallow to THANK THEM FOR THEIR SUPPORT in tabling this bill and GETTING THEIR FIRM PROMISE TO VOTE AGAINST ANY ATTEMPT TO LIFT THE BILL FROM THE TABLE OR PASS IT OUT TO THE HOUSE FOR FURTHER CONSIDERATION. This is the most critical and dangerous gun bill before the Utah Legislature at this time. YOU MUST ALL ACT IMMEDIATELY TO PREVENT THIS BILL FROM GOING ANY FURTHER! The opposition and the media will be out in force stumping for this bill, so you must counter that effort with an even stronger effort of your own. Utah House of Representatives: Phone (801) 538-1029 or Fax (801) 538-1908 Email Addresses of House Judiciary Committee Members: jhickman@le.state.ut.us (Bill Hickman) cbennion@le.state.ut.us (Chad Bennion) gcurtis@le.state.ut.us (Greg Curtis) kbryson@le.state.ut.us (Katherine Bryson) mstephen@le.state.ut.us (Martin Stephens) jswallow@le.state.ut.us (John Swallow) gway@le.state.ut.us (Glenn Way) This bill would create an open-ended list of prohibited locations and situations for firearms possession at schools, churches and in any private residence, including by valid Utah CCW holders. Violation would be a class 'C' misdemeanor. These prohibitions would be permanent. Also allows Director of Utah DPS to declare any Olympic venue or site a 'controlled access area' which prohibits all firearm possession by anyone including valid Utah CCW holders. Violation would be a 3rd degree felony. Bill would become effective upon the Governor's signature and Olympic provisions won't sunset until end of year 2002, some 10 months after the Olympics close. Intent is clearly to destroy current Utah CCW permit program and with it your rights of self-defense. Points to make with Legislators include: Utah CCW holders and lawful firearms owners are not a threat to themselves or the public and have behaved in an exemplary manner. If we trust school teachers and school staff with the education of our children, we should be able to trust them to be safe and responsible if they choose to possess a firearm for lawful self-defense. If a church wishes to prohibit their members from possession of a firearm as a condition of membership, they may do so, but such prohibition is not binding on non-members and is not a matter of civil or criminal law. Restrictions on self defense and possession of an instrument thereof do not emerge from or attach to ownership or control of property, and would create an unworkable nightmare of restricted areas and locations. No property owner has the right to endanger your safety or restrict your ability to protect yourself. Utah's CCW holders are not now and will not be a security risk to the athletes, officials or spectators of the 2002 Olympics. Olympic organizers reportedly will provide some 3500 private bodyguards to Olympic VIP s, but seek to deny you the same ability to protect yourself and your family. You re getting stuck with the Winter Olympic hassle and the tax bill, so don t let your gun rights go down the tube as well. [ Continued In Next Message... ] - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Feb 99 06:02:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: FW: Text for GOUtah! Leg alert #4 for 10 Feb 1999 2/2 [ ...Continued From Previous Message ] HB 237 - Department of Public Safety Fee Consolidation - Rep. Blake Chard (R-Dist. 15) Recommended Position: Strong Opposition Status: Passed House Committee and is on House Floor for Floor Vote. Floor amendments are expected and could reinstate or even increase these fees. This bill must be defeated. Action Required: Contact your Utah State Representative at (801) 538-1029 or by E-mail asking them to OPPOSE any shift in firearms permit fee setting authority from the Legislature to any executive branch of government, including DPS. This bill gives full authority to the Utah Department of Public Safety to set numerous fees and create new fees for their services including Brady background checks and CCW permit applications and renewals. Amendments offered have reduced proposed initial fee increases from $15.00 back to $7.50 for Brady, from $50.00 back to $35.00 for a CCW application, and from $25.00 to $15.00 for CCW renewals. DPS may create new fees including $10.00 for a replacement permit and $7.50 for a late renewal fee. The basic problem remains that DPS may increase fees at a whim by administrative rule, and give all authority in this area to an un-elected bureaucracy. Information from DPS suggests these fees and proposed fee increases cannot be justified based on their costs, and the potential for raising such fees to an abusive, punitive of prohibitive level to discourage retail firearms purchase or lawful carrying of a firearm for self-defense by Utah citizens is very high. Raising these fees could mean only the rich may afford to purchase or carry a firearm. All oversight of such fee structures and use fees must be kept under the authority of the State Legislature and their normal budgetary and fiscal oversight. Utah State Senate SB 122 - Controlled Access Areas in Olympic Venues - Sen. Mike Waddoups (R-Dist 6) Recommended Position: Strong Opposition Status: Senate Energy, Natural Resources and Agriculture Committee. The bill will be heard on Friday 12 February 1999, at 8:00 AM in Room 414 of the State Capitol. Action Required: Action Required: Contact your Utah State Senator TODAY at (801) 538-1035 or by E-Mail and ask them to OPPOSE this bill. Also contact the members of the Senate Energy, Natural Resources and Agriculture Committee.: Senators Beverly Evans, Leonard Blackham, Lorin Jones, Joseph Hull, Millie Peterson. and ask them to oppose the bill in committee. Senate Email addresses for Senate Energy, Natural Resources and Agriculture Committee. include: bevans@le.state.ut.us (Beverly Ann Evans) Lblackha@le.state.ut.us (Leonard Blackham) jhull@le.state.ut.us (Joseph Hull) mpeterso@le.state.ut.us (Millie Peterson) ljones@le.state.ut.us (Lorin Jones) Language is virtually identical to David Jones' HB 91 with regard to restricting Olympic venues. (See comments on HB 91) In light of the ongoing corruption now becoming apparent among IOC, USOC and SLOC officials and politicians, it is unthinkable that Utah's finest citizens, after demonstrating a lifetime of responsible moral and ethical behavior should be stripped of their right and ability to defend themselves. Several other local 'gun rights' groups, as reported in the mainstream press, appear to be endorsing or supporting this bill, or offering only marginal resistance. There are some reports of attempts by some 'gun rights' groups to rewrite the bill, but all attempts seem to embrace the concept that CCW holders are some sort of security risk and must be banned from the Olympic venues. GoUtah! finds this concept unacceptable and will not be a party to this compromise language or embrace the concept of CCW holders as a high risk group in any manner. If you personally think you shouldn't be lawfully carrying a firearm at an Olympic event, that's your choice, but don t presume to make that decision for someone else. SB 204 - Items Prohibited in Correctional Facilities - Sen. Mike Waddoups (R-Dist 6) Recommended Position: Strong Opposition Status: Passed by Unanamous vote of the Senate Transportation and Public Safety Committee on Wednesday, 10 February 1999. The bill now goes before the entire Senate on a "fast-track" via the Consent Calender. Action Required: Contact your Utah State Senator TODAY at (801) 538-1035 or by E-Mail and ask them to OPPOSE this bill. This bill would further weaken the existing 'secure facilities' law by allowing any location or facility serving or contracting with any Corrections agency to ban CCW of other legal firearms on or near their grounds, including shared parking areas, sidewalks and other public access settings. These facilities could include treatment centers for substance abusers, halfway houses or other residential settings, private correctional facilities, juvenile offender foster care homes and other similar settings. Also potentially included are properties set aside for state or local correctional facilities, including future sites. Imagine breaking the law for pheasant hunting for entering onto state or county property that is set aside for a future jail that won't be built for 10 years! Existing secure facilities laws are currently adequate, and if these settings need to be secure areas, they must comply with current secure facilities laws and conditions. This bill must be opposed and defeated. The GOUtah! Political Scoreboard for 10 Feb. 1999 Won: HB 26 - Withdrawn by Sponsor Pending Win: HB 92 - Tabled in House Judiciary Committee 9 Feb 1999 Pending Loss: SB 91 - Passed Both House and Senate and Enrolled for Gov's Signature. Lost: None as yet. That concludes the GOUtah! Political and Legislative Alert #3 for 9 Feb. 1999. We hope this information will be of assistance to you in defending your firearms rights. We will have more information for you throughout the Utah Legislative Session. Remember that getting this information is meaningless unless YOU ACT ON IT TODAY. If you just read it and dump it in the trash, your gun rights, and the gun rights of future generations go in the trash with it. Get involved, get active and get vocal! Gavin Wallace Blue '96 R1100RTL - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Feb 99 06:02:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Re: Concealed Guns Will Still Go to Church, School On Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:54:29 -0700 S. Thompson replied: > The Coalition of Religious Communities claims to represent "most major > faiths in Utah", so I'd assume someone from the LDS Church is a member. The Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints isn't a member of the Coalition of Religious Communities. Scott - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Feb 99 06:02:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: FW: gun maker liability jury trial fiasco Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 20:14:29 -0800 From: Steve Washam To: MikePiet@aol.com Cc: piml@egroups.com, liberty-and-justice@mailbox.by.net Subject: gun maker liability jury trial fiasco MikePiet@aol.com wrote: >NEW YORK (AP) -- A federal jury found several gun makers >liable Thursday in seven New York City-area shootings >because of negligent marketing practices. Other >manufacturers were cleared. NPR reported today before the verdict that there was one juror holding out for acquittal in what NPR termed an attempt at jury nullification. The independent thinker was reportedly concerned that a decision against gun makers would set a bad precedent. According to NPR, other jurors reported this non-conformance to the judge, and asked that the troublesome juror be removed. The judge instructed the jurors that they may not judge the law, and must find according to the directions he had given them. Steve Washam to the best of his fuzzy memory - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:59:17 -0700 From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Re: Concealed Guns Will Still Go to Church, School At 07:15 AM 2/11/99 -0700, you wrote: >> I DO belong in ... my synagogue. > >What is your synagogue's (the officials', since buildings don't have >attitudes) view towards worshippers being armed, and these bills, and >is it or a parent body a member of the Coalition? I honestly don't have hard answers to your questions. No one's ever brought up the subject of worshippers being armed. I did once ask if there was anything in Jewish religious law that would prohibit a Jew from carrying firearms, or if such behavior would be considered incorrect, and was told that no such prohibitions exist. While I wasn't even aware of the Coalition until a couple of days ago, I'd be extremely surprised if my synagogue were a member of it. Synagogues are much more autonomous than LDS churches, so it's entirely possible that some Jewish synagogues or organizations are members, although I certainly hope not! Sarah - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 00:08:55 -0700 From: "S. Thompson" Subject: SB 122 - The Good, The Bad, The Ugly As most of you know, SB 122 (Olympic Gun Control) was heard by the Energy, Natural Resources and Agriculture Committee this morning. Sen. Waddoups presented a substitute bill immediately before the hearing, so no one got more than about 5 minutes to look at it, and most never even saw it. Obviously no one read it carefully. While this is unfortunate, apparently final language wasn't completed until last night. The bill has been almost completely rewritten. Substantive changes: 1. Adds that "the division" (DPS or BCI) may not deny suspend or revoke a concealed firearm permit solely for a single conviction for an infraction violation of 76-10-5." This sounds like it protects CCW holders from having their permits revoked for infractions, but I have problems with the "may not" which I think should read "shall not". Otherwise it's still at the discretion of BCI. (Any legal experts out there?) 2. Limits the Olympics section of the bill to "between Jan 25, 2002 and April 1, 2002. 3. The "Olympic Commander" language remains. 4. It does not define Olympic venue "secure areas", but does require that they be marked, and have clearly marked entrances with metal detectors. 5. Provides that the Commander MAY provide secure weapons storage areas. This is worthless, unless the language is changed to SHALL provide. 6. Requires that the state shall assume liability "for any injury where an individual can establish that: if a person licensed to carry a concealed fireams had been able to access the concealed firearm, the injury would not have occurred to the individual or others." This does NOT include liability for improper or negligent actions on the part of Olympic security. 7. Penalty is a class B misdemeanor if it involves a firearm "knowingly or intentionally" transported. This would appear to protect someone who simply forgot he was carrying, although I suspect he could still be prosecuted. Woody Powell says this should be changed to "knowingly AND intentionally". 8. SURPRISE! Churches and private residences are back. The new SB 122 provides that a "person, including a person licensed to carry a concealed firearm after having received notice that firearms are prohibited, may not knowingly and intentionally transport a firearms into a house of worship or a private residence. Notice can be verbal or by posting a sign. Violation is an infraction. Discussion: 1. If the "may not" language is changed to "shall not", this would benefit gun owners since current law a CCW permit may be suspended for an infraction. 2. The limits are acceptable, assuming one believes a gun ban is acceptable. 3. The Olympic Commander is Craig Dearden, Commissioner of Public Safety. I believe Commissioner Dearden is an honorable man. However, this is too much power to invest in one person, especially since he may be subject to pressure from the many federal agencies involved. 4. This needs to be clarified to require clearly visible boundaries, i.e building walls, fences, etc. It would also theoretically be possible to fence off public areas (such as the Gallivan Center) and declare them "secure facilities". While I have no reason to believe this WILL be done, the law needs to be tightened. 5. "May provide" is nonsense. It's like saying you "may" pay your taxes if you so choose. SLOC says they will not provide safe storage because it "costs money" and they can't afford it. Considering what's being spent on the Olympics, this is a rather lame excuse. Also, there is no requirement that the secure storage be in reasonable proximity to the event or the entrance. 6. Both SLOC and the State have said that they absolutely will not accept liability. (They also claim no one will insure them, although outside sources tell me this is not true.) The committee also voiced objections to the liability language but felt it should be removed on the Senate floor. Expect this section to be stricken. 7. I'm not sure if this is a problem or not. The changes suggested by Powell seem reasonable. 8. While I find this language offensive, it does tend to clarify existing criminal trespass law, which already provides that a church or private residence owner/lessee may ask anyone to leave their property. It also reduces the penalty from a misdemeanor to an infraction. However, there are some potential problems with this language. One concern is that this does not require churches or private residences to accept liability for the consequences of banning firearms. More important, it gives decision-making authority to "the owner, lessee, or person with lawful right of possession". These three entities may be in conflict. Can an owner prevent a lessee from keeping firearms on his property? Can a mortgage company prevent a home-owner from keeping firearms? It seems to me (and I'm not an attorney) that such conflicts would inevitably arise and would have to be decided by the courts. (Input from attorneys welcome again!) Sen. Waddoups introduced the bill by saying that he believes the bill is an undue restriction of Constitutional rights, and that he would personally be happy if it were killed. He is sponsoring it because he believes that by doing so he can protect gun owners from more restrictive bills. He also mentioned that he had received threats in connection with this bill. Based on the new language, USSC chose to support this bill. USSC feels that, although offensive, this bill is the best that gun owners are likely to do, and an Olympic gun ban is inevitable. They would rather support this bill than see a more restrictive bill passed by someone else. Speaking in favor of the bill: Elwood Powell, Chair, USSC Leonard Wojcik, USSC Rob Bishop, USSC Bill Shaw, SLOC William Nash, Utahns Against Gun Violence (who opposed the church and private residence language as being too weak). Speaking in opposition to to the bill: Sarah Thompson for Nolympics Bill Szas (great job!) Jim Dexter, Chair, Libertarian Party of Utah Steve Stromness, Grassroots Janalee Tobias, Women Against Gun Control Charles Bradford (retired legislator) Committee members present: Beverly Evans (Chair), Lorin Jones, Joseph Hull, Millie Peterson. Senator Evans was an excellent chair, and allowed everyone who wished to speak a reasonable time to do so. However, several attendees noted that it was clear that the committee members had decided how to vote before they even saw the bill language. We had the pretense of participatory democracy, but it was really all a show. Sen. Lorin Jones distinguished himself with his impassioned defense of our rights: "This is one of the most blatant infringements on the Constitutional rights of American citizens that I have ever seen in my life." He went on to say that disarming citizens would not have prevented the Munich Olympics massacre, and invoked the memories of the Nazi death camps. He also objected to the inclusion of churches and private residences. Thank you Sen. Jones! Sen. Peterson moved to pass the bill out favorably, Sen. Hull made a minor (and unobjectionable) amendment, and voiced concern about the liabiity provisions. The bill was passed with a favorable recommendation, by a vote of 3-1, with Sen. Jones opposed. SUMMARY: SB 122 was passed out of committee favorably. It will now go to the Senate floor. I expect that the liability language will be removed from the bill on the Senate floor. The secure storage language is unenforceable. The church and private residence language is unnecessary, and at least needs clarification. In other words, SB 122 is still unacceptable, and should still be OPPOSED. WHAT YOU CAN DO: 1. Contact Senator Lorin Jones and thank him for his support. He was the sole vote against this bill and should know he has our support and gratitude. 2. Contact as many members of the Senate as possible and ask them to OPPOSE SB 122. Do what you can to educate them about the problems with the bill, Make sure you contact your OWN senator! 3. While it is entirely appropriate to tell your elected representatives that they will win (or lose) your vote based on how they vote, but otherwise, DO NOT MAKE THREATS. It does not reflect well on us when bill sponsors say they have been threatened. 4. Governor Leavitt supports gun control. Please let him know your thoughts on this issue. 5. Remember: This is NOT about personalities. I believe that the members of USSC, Rob Bishop, Mike Waddoups and all involved are doing what they believe is correct, even if I don't necessarily agree with them. This is about PRINCIPLE! The bill should be opposed because it needlessly restricts the constitutional rights of gun owners who have done nothing to deserve it. If you believe that innocent gun owners should not be penalized because of the actions of criminals and terrorists, you should OPPOSE SB 122. You should, of course, consider all viewpoints carefully. Other points of view are available at: GOUtah! http://www.slpsa.org/goutah! (This site seems to be down at the moment.) USSC http://www.UtahShootingSports.org Remember that YOU have the responsibility to be an informed citizen. No one can do that for you. Apologies again for the length (and lateness) of this post. It's been a long, dismal day. Sarah - - ------------------------------ End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #126 ***********************************