From: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com (utah-firearms-digest) To: utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: utah-firearms-digest V2 #129 Reply-To: utah-firearms-digest Sender: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk utah-firearms-digest Friday, March 5 1999 Volume 02 : Number 129 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Feb 99 22:01:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: National police and disarmed citizens - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:00:20 -0500 From: Mark A. Smith http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_btl/19970905_xcbtl_national_p.shtml FRIDAY SEPTEMBER 05 1997 National police and disarmed citizens Joseph Farah As the federal government grabs citizens' firearms and deploys a virtual standing army of national cops, America's balance of power is shifting from freedom to tyranny. This could only happen in a country where the people, thanks to a heavy dose of disinformation spread by the government- media complex and the government schools, have forgotten their history and constitutional heritage. Talk to the average gun-control fanatic and he or she will tell you the Second Amendment was only intended to protect the right to bear arms in the context of the need for defense of the state and nation. This argument could only be made by someone with a complete disconnect from reality -- someone who chooses willingly and deliberately to ignore the massive amount of documentation to the contrary. What was the original intent of our founders with regard to firearms? Here's a sampling of their unambiguous opinions: * James Madison: "The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. A well-regulated Militia, composed of the people trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country." * Samuel Adams: "And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms." * Thomas Paine: "Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property ... horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them." * George Mason: "I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials." * George Washington: "Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the people's liberty teeth. A free people ought to be armed. When firearms go, all goes. We need them every hour." * Thomas Jefferson: "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. ... The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." * Alexander Hamilton: "The best we can hope for, concerning the people at large, is that they be properly armed." Many of these great men warned with equal passion against the government arming itself by creating what they feared would be a standing army or national police force. Consider the following: * Elbridge Gerry: "What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty. Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins." * Noah Webster: "Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom of Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any bands of regular troops than can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States." * Tench Coxe: "The power of the sword is in the hands of Congress? My friends and countrymen, it is not so; for the powers of the sword are in the hands of the yeomanry of America from sixteen to sixty. The Militia of these free commonwealths, entitled and accustomed to their arms, when compared with any possible army, must be tremendous and irresistible. Who are the Militia? Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American. The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the Federal or State governments, but where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." When you consider the letter of our Constitution, and then consider its spirit through the words of the men responsible for authoring it, there is no question about the individual's right to bear arms. But there is grave reason to doubt the right of the federal government to authorize wielding them for any reason other than war. Thanks to Jim Eason of KSFO Radio in San Francisco for compiling these and many other similar quotes. ------- A daily radio broadcast adaptation of Joseph Farah's commentaries can be heard at http://www.ktkz.com/ Joseph Farah is editor of WorldNetDaily.com and executive director of the Western Journalism Center, an independent group of investigative reporters. 1997 Western Journalism Center - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:45:13 -0700 From: "S. Thompson" Subject: UT: Fight Moves To House The following alert was written byt Gun Owners of America. Thanks! Senate Passes "Improved" Olympic Gun Ban: Fight Moves To House Gun Owners of America Email/Fax Alert 8001 Forbes Pl Suite 102 Springfield, VA 22151 (703) 321-8585 Fax: (703) 321-8408 http://www.gunowners.org Utah-- February 24, 1999 Action: Insist Representatives Vote Against SB 122 NO MATTER WHAT SB 122, the Olympics Gun Ban, passed the Senate yesterday on a vote of 21-4-4. A pair of floor amendments were added in yet another attempt to buy the silence of gun owners and give cover to the politicians. That is unacceptable. As the bill now goes to the House-- where you can bet the anti-gunners will try to ram it through as fast as possible-- it is vital that you immediately contact your Representative with one simple message: VOTE AGAINST SB 122 NO MATTER WHAT. One of the amendments states that landowners cannot deny tenants their Second Amendment rights. This was necessary because new gun control in the "substituted" SB 122, similar to the gun control you beat back in last year's battle over SB 57, lets anyone post signs to deny your right of self-defense. The other amendment narrows the definition of Olympic venue somewhat, meaning that it might be difficult to declare the entirety of Salt Lake City a no-safety zone. But the "Olympic law enforcement commander" would still be able to ban lawfully carried weapons at all spectator-attended events if access is controlled in any way (such as tickets or crowd-routing temporary fences) and at all places open to media or athletes but not the public. Somehow, proposing sweeping gun control and then scaling it back a bit before final passage is supposed to make gun owners happy. Bill text: http://www.le.state.ut.us/~1999/bills/sbillamd/SB0122S2.htm - --- Pre-written message: clip and send --- Dear Representative: I urge you to vote against SB 122 no matter what. There are no possible amendments that would make this bill acceptable. My safety and rights are simply too important. Sincerely, _______________ - ----------------------------------------- Utah House of Representatives Roster General contact numbers: House voice: 801-538-1029, 800-662-3367 House fax: Rep. 801-538-1908, Dem. 801-538-9505 District information is available at: http://www.le.state.ut.us/house/html/district.htm Dis Name Home phone Office phone Fax 01 Anderson 435-854-3760 eanderso@le.state.ut.us 02 Ferry 435-744-2997 435-744-2997 435-744-2999 bferry@le.state.ut.us 03 Buttars 435-258-5015 435-258-2559 435-258-2559 cbuttars@le.state.ut.us 04 Pace 435-753-615 lpace@le.state.ut.us 05 Olsen 435-752-4304 435-752-4304 eolsen@le.state.ut.us 06 Stephens 801-731-5346 801-524-2626 801-594-8229 mstephen@le.state.ut.us 07 Gladwell 801-782-4130 801-737-9160 dgladwel@le.state.ut.us 08 Murray 801-393-7062 jmurray@le.state.ut.us 09 Hansen 801-393-1514 801-629-8325 801-392-8011 nhansen@le.state.ut.us HouseDist9@aol.com 10 Shurtliff 801-479-0289 lshurtli@le.state.ut.us shurtlif@inovion.com 11 Saunders 801-476-1110 801-476-7070 801-476-7074 csaunder@le.state.ut.us 12 Adair 801-773-2125 801-773-9250 801-773-9927 gadair@le.state.ut.us adairreactor@earthlink.net 13 Stephens 801-825-3792 nstephen@le.state.ut.us 14 Bush 801-825-3210 dbush@le.state.ut.us 15 Chard 801-773-7474 bchard@le.state.ut.us bchard@utah-connections.com 16 Garn 801-544-3533 801-776-0232 kgarn@le.state.ut.us 17 Dillree 801-451-2773 801-560-4455 801-451-6116 mdillree@le.state.ut.us 18 Koehn 801-296-1761 801-444-5187 skoehn@le.state.ut.us 19 Allen 801-295-8576 801-444-5184 sallen@le.state.ut.us sallen@admin.dist.davis.k12.ut.us 20 Siddoway 801-292-4185 801-538-7736 801-294-4135 Richard.Siddoway@usoe.k12.ut.us rsiddoway@earthlink.com 21 Gowans 435-882-2120 jgowans@le.state.ut.us 22 Duckworth 801-250-0728 801-569-6523 cduckwor@le.state.ut.us 23 Bourdeaux 801-596-8784 801-596-9081 801-322-4435 dbourdea@le.state.ut.us 24 Becker 801-364-1656 801-355-8816 801-355-2090 rbecker@le.state.ut.us 25 Jones 801-582-8247 djones@le.state.ut.us 26 Fife 801-521-7383 801-972-3475 801-977-9454 ffife@le.state.ut.us 27 Baca 801-487-2738 801-969-9904 lbaca@le.state.ut.us 28 Bradshaw 801-581-9646 801-581-9646 801-581-9646 abradsha@le.state.ut.us 29 Goodfellow 801-968-0626 801-957-3313 bgoodfel@le.state.ut.us 30 Biskupski 801-484-8369 801-296-5014 jbiskups@le.state.ut.us 31 Carlson 801-485-8612 mcarlson@le.state.ut.us 32 Bigelow 801-968-4188 rbigelow@le.state.ut.us 33 Hendrickson 801-969-8920 nhendric@le.state.ut.us 34 Holdaway 801-964-6360 801-268-8553 801-964-6360 kholdawa@le.state.ut.us 35 Buffmire 801-266-1862 jbuffmir@le.state.ut.us 36 Tyler 801-272-1218 801-581-6920 801-585-9291 ltyler@le.state.ut.us lamont.tyler@m.cc.utah.edu 37 Short 801-277-1372 801-278-0259 rshort@le.state.ut.us 38 Cox 801-967-9760 801-569-5216 gcox@le.state.ut.us garyc@wjordan.com 39 Zolman 801-967-6687 dzolman@le.state.ut.us dlz@burgoyne.com 40 Walsh 801-561-5169 801-561-5169 rwalsh@le.state.ut.us 41 Arent 801-272-1956 801-272-1956 801-272-4450 parent@le.state.ut.us 42 Buckner 801-964-8215 801-967-4333 pbuckner@le.state.ut.us pbuckner@aol.com 43 Harper 801-566-5466 801-569-5121 wharper@le.state.ut.us 44 Bennion 801-281-1607 801-264-2678 801-288-2144 cbennion@le.state.ut.us cbennion@slc.quik.com 45 Brown 801-255-0556 801-355-6079 mbrown@le.state.ut.us 46 Morgan 801-943-0067 801-943-9614 kmorgan@le.state.ut.us kw5morgan@aol.com 47 Holladay 801-280-6404 801-898-4456 801-282-4677 bhollada@le.state.ut.us 48 Beck 801-572-2325 801-572-9347 tbeck@le.state.ut.us 49 Curtis 801-943-3091 801-569-5141 gcurtis@le.state.ut.us 50 Frandsen 801-254-4940 801-253-4409 801-253-4080 lfrandse@le.state.ut.us 51 Swallow 801-572-8201 801-553-9805 801-571-6545 jswallow@le.state.ut.us law@silversage.com 52 Hogue 801-254-1668 801-253-7586 801-253-7586 dhogue@le.state.ut.us dhogue@rep52.com 53 Ure 435-783-4650 435-783-2487 dure@le.state.ut.us 54 Snow 435-722-4162 435-722-9111 gsnow@le.state.ut.us gesnow@ubtanet.com 55 Seitz 435-789-0650 435-789-1552 435-789-1551 jseitz@le.state.ut.us 56 Cox 801-768-8759 801-768-7020 801-768-8759 dcox@le.state.ut.us David.Cox@lehi.alpine.k12.ut.us 57 Nelson 801-756-7558 801-756-2091 lnelson@le.state.ut.us 58 Snow 801-224-6163 801-486-7121 801-486-7125 msnow@le.state.ut.us 59 Rowan 801-224-6141 801-224-6141 801-224-6141 trowan@le.state.ut.us 60 Bryson 801-226-2061 kbryson@le.state.ut.us 61 Dayton 801-221-0623 801-375-0369 mdayton@le.state.ut.us 62 Alexander 801-375-1092 801-224-8666 801-224-0446 jalexand@le.state.ut.us jeffa@alexanders.com 63 Tanner 801-373-6246 801-373-6246 801-373-6246 jtanner@le.state.ut.us JordanTanner@DeseretOnline.com 64 Lockhart 801-377-7428 blockhar@le.state.ut.us 65 Throckmorton 801-489-8342 mthrockm@le.state.ut.us Mthrockmor@AOL.com 66 Way 801-798-2295 gway@le.state.ut.us 67 Wright 801-667-3333 801-667-3333 bwright@le.state.ut.us 68 Styler 435-864-3077 435-864-5660 435-864-5669 mstyler@le.state.ut.us 69 King 435-637-7955 435-637-2120 435-637-2433 bking@le.state.ut.us bking@ac.ceu.edu 70 Johnson 435-529-3227 435-529-7443 435-529-7444 bjohnson@le.state.ut.us 71 Johnson 435-678-2077 435-678-2201 435-678-2220 kjohnson@le.state.ut.us 72 Bowman 435-586-8174 dbowman@le.state.ut.us 73 Hatch 435-676-2214 435-676-8808 435-676-2421 thatch@le.state.ut.us sectitle@color-country.net 74 Iverson 435-673-2936 diverson@le.state.ut.us 75 Hickman 435-673-2671 435-674-5200 jhickman@le.state.ut.us ************** Did someone else forward this to you? To be certain of getting up to date information, please consider subscribing to the GOA E-Mail Alert network directly. There is no cost or obligation, and the volume of mail is quite low. To subscribe, simply send a message to goamail@gunowners.org and include the state in which you live, in either the subject or the body. To unsubscribe, reply to any alert and ask to be removed. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:31:03 -0700 From: "S. Thompson" Subject: LAST CHANCE! HB 237 HB 237, DPS fee increases has passed the House and received a favorable report from the Senate Transportation and Public Safety Committee. It now goes to the full Senate for a final vote. This is your last chance to stop fee increases and return oversight to the legislature. Contact Senators (especially your own) and urge them to OPPOSE HB 237! General contact numbers: Senate voice: 801-538-1035, 877-585-8824 Senate fax: Rep. 801-538-1414, Dem. 801-538-1449 leg-alerts is owned and distributed by Sarah Thompson, M.D. The opinions in this alert represent those of the list owner only, unless otherwise attributed or specified. To subscribe to leg-alerts send a message to: majordomo@aros.net in the body of the message put: subscribe leg-alerts PLEASE REMEMBER THAT YOU CANNOT POST TO THIS LIST! Send comments, alerts, suggestions, etc. to: righter@therighter.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:38:22 -0700 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: Re: Warner Bros. & Snipers Received: from wvc ([204.246.130.34]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:25:44 -0700 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA13401; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:09:55 -0700 Received: from (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA10268; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:19:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:19:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990224154520.0079fd60@dftsrv> Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.net Reply-To: hrmoon@pineinst.com Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@mainstream.net Precedence: first-class From: RICHARD MOON To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Warner Bros. & Snipers X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline > GySgt Carlos Hathcock died at 0545 hours, 23 Feb1999.=20 >He developed pneumomia while hospitalized for a urinary=20 >infection. Taps and a hand salute to a truly exceptional >warrior and fighter till the end. God bless Carlos Hathcock. One of the most famous snipers to ever live. He saved many American lives with what he did. May he rest in peace. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:16:00 -0700 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: Sun. 2-28 Waco-BATF Demo White House Received: from smtp4.listserve.com ([206.55.18.125]) by mta1.mailsrvcs.net (InterMail v03.02.04 118 119) with ESMTP id <19990225002419.DHYJ14733@smtp4.listserve.com> for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 18:24:19 -0600 Received: from star.listserve.com (Star.ListServe.com [206.55.18.12]) by smtp4.listserve.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA10188; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:20:09 -0500 Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 18:44:01 -0500 Message-Id: <36D48EC1.2B72FFBC@kreative.net> From: Carol Moore Subject: Sun. 2-28 Waco-BATF Demo White House To: Waco List From Precedence: Bulk Host: http://ListServe.com, a service of Whole Systems Design, Inc. Errors-To: Announce@LPVA.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline It's the 6th anniversary of BATF attack on Davidians that killed 6 Davidians and 4 agents. For the fifth year in a row members of the Committee for Waco Justice will be demonstrating--this year right on Bill Clinton's doorstep--on the White House sidewalk south of Lafayette Park. We'll be gathering at 2:00 pm, hanging out for an hour or so, and then going for late lunch/early dinner nearby. I've got lots of Waco signs, but bring your own if you like. Let's remind Clinton that we have not forgotten the MAIN reason he SHOULD have been impeached and removed. And let's chant loud for the seven Davidian prisoners doing 238 years total! (PS. NBC Dateline will air an interview with Juanita Broaddrick who makes credible allegations Clinton raped her 20 years ago. All America will get a better idea of just what kind of evil man we have in the White House. Sorry this message late, my server down since last night.) CarolMoore@kreative.net http://www.kreative.net/carolmoore/davidian-massacre.html ****Owning a firearm is a RIGHT, not a privilege**** The NRA ILA EVC closed mailing list is NOT an=20 official list of the NRA, but is offered as=20 a tool by Jim Kendall (WA-1st District EVC) and Telebyte NW. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send an email request to=20 NRA-1st@telebyte.com *********** Victory 1998! *************** - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 08:09:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: FW: "Peace in our Time" - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:10:59 -0700 From: Jim Dexter To: LPUtah Forum Subject: FW: "Peace in our Time" We need more satire like this. :-) - ---------- A rewrite of a portion of Leonard Wojcik's apologist statements regarding the USSC's support of SB 122, with a Neville Chamberlain twist: Yes we think we have a pretty good arrangement with Adolf Hitler and the German government, all things considered. Some type of armed incursion is going to happen. The German news media will keep pushing for it and eventually the German public will demand it (even though it is irrational, the public doesn't think, they just react to being alarmed). It then will be used as a vehicle to push through numerous odorous offenses such as were outlined in Hitler's Mein Kampf. Compare where responsibility lies in Mein Kampf vs the current agreement. The current agreement requires Nazi Germany to refrain from attacking certain countries, Mein Kampf required genocide. The infractions are not even in the same ballpark. I don't think that the Western Nations who are opposing the current proposal have the political or military clout to hold off a German assault next year. We run the very real risk of losing it all, with no gains at all. As for next year: The British government totally opposes any incursions by the Nazis. We have drawn the line at that point. We feel that this year's agreement with Nazi Germany makes it much easier to defend our point next year and in the following years. This agreement also sets a standard that any future incursions will have to meet and it will be difficult. Some may get a thrill out of confrontational politics.... the rancor of bitterly fought presentations in world committees, the political muscle of rallies on the steps of the British Parliament, rubbing the anti-fascist nose in our political muscle. We prefer to work with reasonable people like Adolf Hitler to try to solve the problems before we have to go confrontational. The British government feels that with the inevitable Nazi incursions, it is wise to deal with the problem now while we can get some favorable concessions. Read the agreement, understand what is happening, support the efforts of a lot of people to preserve your rights. Contact your leaders and express support for the Munich peace agreement as amended by Adolf Hitler and Neville Chamberlain in 1938. The portion of Leonard Wojcik's statements used above: Yes we think we have a pretty good bill, all things considered. Some type of olympic legislation is going to happen. The news media will keep pushing for it and eventually the public will demand it (even though it is irrational, the public doesn't think, they just react to being alarmed). It then will be used as a vehicle to push through numerous odorous things such as were in the Jones bill. Compare where responsibility lies in the Jones bill vs the current bill. The current bill puts responsibility on the property owner, the Jones bill required prior permission. The penalties are not even in the same ballpark. I don't think that those who are opposing the current bill have the political clout to hold off an assualt next year. We run the very real risk of losing it all, with no gains at all. As for next year: USSC totally oposes restrictions on concealed carry in business and schools. We have drawn the line at that point. We feel that this year's bill makes it much easier to defend our point next year and in the following years. This bill also sets a standard that any future temporary restrictions will have to meet and it will be difficult. Some may get a thrill out of confrontational politics.... the rancor of bitterly fought presentations in committees, the political muscle of rallys on the capitol steps, rubbing the anti gunner's nose in our political muscle. We prefer to work with reasonable people to try to solve the problems before we have to go confrontational. The USSC board feels that with the inevitable passage of some sort of bill, it is wise to deal with the problem now while we can get some favorable language. Read the bill, understand what is happening, support the efforts of a lot of people to preserve your rights. Contact your senators and express support for SB122 second substitute as amended by Senator Waddoups. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 20:51:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: FW: Gun vs NAACP I'd let them skate if they add a statement of disaffiliation with the NAACP to their Form 4473. :) Scott - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:56:48 +0000 From: citizen@pahrump.NET (J. J. Johnson) Subject: Gun vs NAACP To: piml@egroups.COM You folks heard that the NAACP is thinking about joining in with cities and suing the gun makers. Here's how the gun manufactures should respond: We, the Gun Manufacturers of America, have received word of possible legal actions taken against us by the NAACP for the proliferation of firearms in their communities. Their claim is that guns have cause death and destruction their large constituency. Therefore, in order to make the Black Community "feel more safe", and to avoid any lawsuit by the NAACP, the Gun Manufacturers of America have decided to no longer sell firearms to any Black Americans. We also encourage the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms to review all 4473 form for the "race" of the gun owner, and confiscating any firearm currently owned by any Black American (including law enforcement and military). After all, we wouldn't want the Black population hurting themselves with our products. Let's see if that doesn't tick some people off. J.J. Johnson ______________________________________________ J.J. Johnson - citizen@mindspring.com P.O. Box 3000 suite 204 Pahrump, Nevada 89041 702.727.6340 Office 888.779.3347 Pager - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:20:13 -0700 From: "David Sagers" Subject: RIP: Carlos Hathcock - Decorated Marine Sniper Received: from wvc ([204.246.130.34]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 01:08:07 -0700 Received: from bronze.coil.com by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id AAA15350; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 00:52:17 -0700 Received: from [198.4.94.178] (cmhd2.coil.com [198.4.94.210]) by bronze.coil.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA06688; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 02:30:48 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: freematt@bronze.coil.com Message-Id: Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 01:49:21 -0500 To: Matthew Gaylor From: Matthew Gaylor Subject: RIP: Gunny Carlos Hathcock Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline From: #jramm On Tuesday 23 February 1999 at 0545 hrs America lost one of its Greatest Vietnam era Heros. Legendary United States Marine Sniper, GSgt. Carlos Norman Hathcock II, passed away after a long bout with multiple sclerosis and most recently a kidney infection which had caused him to be hospitalized for a short time. GSgt. Hathcock was the subject of MARINE SNIPER - 93 Confirmed Kills by Charles Henderson. Probably one of the most read Vietnam era books, it covers some of the more colorful events which made him famous. He was awarded the Silver Star, although more than 25+ years after the fact, for saving the lives of several Marines on 16 September 1969 when the amtrac they were riding on ran over an anti-tank mine and was destroyed. Despite his severe personal wounds which included 3rd degree burns over almost every inch of his body, Hathcock jeopardized his own life and pulled seven other Marines to safety before trying to save himself. Despite a nation-wide effort to convince Washington to award the Medal of Honor; Hatcock received the Silver Star as a reminder to all of the political nature of Vietnam and what it's like to have a draft-dodger as 'so-called' President. Despite life-threatening wounds, Hathcock recovered and began instructing other Marine Snipers at the Scout Sniper School in Quantico, VA. He also trained hundreds of civilian law enforcement 'counter-snipers' as well. Probably the best known sniper in American history GSgt. Carlos N. Hathcock II will be sorely missed, but not forgotten. A memorial web site, http://www.marinesniper.org, is in the process of being set up. It will contain stories and information about GSgt. Hathcock as well as the ability to make donations to a memorial fund which is being set up in his honor. The following are the arrangements for U S Marine Corps Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Norman Hathcock II: A viewing will be held at the Woodlawn Memorial Gardens Funeral Home, 6329 Virginia Beach Boulevard, Virginia Beach, Virginia 23462 on Thursday 25 February 1999 from 6:00 - 8:00 pm. A service will be held Friday 26 February 1999 at 12:00 noon at the funeral home with burial following the service. Memorials may be made to: Navy Marine Corps Relief Fund Society PO Box 415 Quantico, VA 22134 Carlos is survived by his wife, Jo, and his son GySgt Carlos N. Hathcock III. Cards and letters of condolences may be sent to: Mrs. Carlos N. Hathcock II 600 Raff Road Virginia Beach, VA 23462 Jim Ramm Member, NRA Board of Directors ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt@coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per = week) Matthew Gaylor,1933 E. Dublin-Granville Rd.,#176, Columbus, OH 43229 Archived at http://www.reference.com/cgi-bin/pn/listarch?list=3DFA@coil.com= ************************************************************************** - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Mar 99 18:43:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: "The Best Defense" - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:37:50 EST From: NRAGlock@aol.com To: biophilos@flinet.com Cc: Roundtable@flinet.com Subject: Re: County action THE WASHINGTON TIMES March 2, 1999 Stories of Saved Lives aim to Erase Gun-Owning Stigma - ------------------------------------- By Robert Stacy McCain - ------------------------------------- James Wayne Horne had a record of nearly 30 arrests, with three state prison terms behind him, when he broke into Sammie Foust's Cape Coral, Fla., home in 1996. Horne was on crack cocaine. He wanted money. He had a knife. He cut and beat the 49-year-old woman so badly that she required hospitalization. Horne didn't go to the hospital. He went to the morgue, because Mrs. Foust found her pistol and shot him dead. The story of how a .25-caliber pistol saved Mrs. Foust's life is just one of more than a dozen dramatic accounts of armed self-defense by ordinary citizens in Robert A. Waters' new book, "The Best Defense: True Stories of Intended Victims Who Defended Themselves With a Firearm." The stories were chosen "for dramatic effect," Mr. Waters said, even though he explains that most instances of armed self-defense end peacefully as soon as a criminal sees that his intended victim has a gun. [Brandishing, IMO, unless the criminal is apprehended. Otherwise this merely advises the escaping criminal to conduct the next crime more stealthily and prey upon the unarmed. Very uncharitable. - Scott] "There are a lot of stories where someone would come up to try to carjack a car, and the driver would pull a gun and the guy would run away," Mr. Waters said. Having a gun "may have saved [the driver's] life, but there's not much drama in that." [And killed the next guy.] Mr. Waters, 55, said he chose the 14 accounts in "The Best Defense" from among "several thousand cases" he had collected over the years. The Ocala, Fla., resident said his interest in such stories began "about 10 years ago" when he saw a story in the local newspaper about a man who shot an intruder. "At that point, I started collecting clippings" about citizens defending themselves with firearms, he said. Among the violent encounters recounted in Mr. Waters' new book: * With a .45-caliber pistol, Doug Stanton of Ashland, Ohio, ended the 1995 killing spree of Jerry Hessler, who had murdered four persons and wounded two others in a psychotic revenge plan. * Judy Davis of Orange County, Fla., was stalked by an obsessive man she had once briefly dated. When he continued stalking her despite restraining orders and two criminal convictions -- he was twice released on probation - -- Miss Davis bought a .38 revolver that saved her life when the stalker broke into her home and attacked her. * On Dec. 2, 1994, the long criminal career of "Dixie Mafia" boss William "Pappy" Head ended when he and an accomplice made the mistake of trying to rob a jewelry store in Richmond whose owner, Gary B. Baker, made sure he and his employees were always armed. A retired counselor to the disabled, Mr. Waters is himself a gun owner -- but "not a collector or a real major gun enthusiast," he said. He hopes the stories in "The Best Defense" will help counter media stereotypes of gun owners. [What, that they won't take out their own trash, but dump it on other people who may not be armed at the time?] "Gun owners are portrayed as being militia types. ... A lot of people try to portray gun owners as vigilantes, cowboys and wackos," Mr. Waters said, explaining that the people he interviewed for the book "were nothing like that. They were normal, everyday citizens who were going about their everyday lives when they were brutally attacked. And because they had a gun, they were able to survive the attack." Mr. Waters noted that his home state of Florida is one of several states that license citizens to carry concealed weapons. "Since the law was passed in 1987, more than 300,000 permits have been issued, and the murder rate has fallen 21 percent," he said. "Many criminals will tell you that they do anything to avoid an armed citizen. One reason, for instance, they don't rob 'mom and pop' stores, as opposed to chain stores, is because in the 'mom and pop' stores, many times the owners will keep a gun. Many [retail] chains have policies prohibiting clerks from keeping guns." Mr. Waters cited the research of University of Chicago professor John R. Lott Jr., whose recent book "More Guns, Less Crime" demonstrated that private gun ownership deters violent crime. But such research is sometimes ignored, Mr. Waters said, and many media accounts continue to promote legislation against gun ownership. "I think it's based on emotion," Mr. Waters said of the current "mania" for gun-control laws. "I think Dr. Lott and Dr. Gary Kleck at Florida State University have proven that gun control makes minimal difference in the murder rate. However, emotionally, it's a lot easier to blame a firearm [for crime], rather than blaming the criminal." Statistics and research are inadequate when gun-control advocates appeal to such common emotions, Mr. Waters said. "One of the reasons I wrote this book was to bring some emotional presence to the pro-gun side of the debate," he said. "Any time a child or a teen-ager is murdered with a gun, it's all over the national media. And yet, there are hundreds of thousands of cases of people using guns for self-defense and to defend others. But these stories are generally local stories. They're not usually carried by the national media." Mr. Waters added, "The pro-gun side needs to debate less about the Second Amendment and more about issues that really matter to people, such as self-defense." Though he defends the Second Amendment guarantee of citizens' rights to "keep and bear arms," Mr. Waters said, "I'm not totally opposed to all forms of gun control." He supports the recently implemented instant background check because "criminals should be stopped from getting firearms as much as we can." [Yet they should be loosed on society!?] However, he has concerns about efforts for federal gun registration laws "because I think they will eventually lead to confiscation." The recent efforts by several cities to sue gun manufacturers for the actions of criminals is "absurd," Mr. Waters said. "It's almost like suing a pencil manufacturer because a kid makes an F in class." While gun ownership is unpopular in some places, Mr. Waters said reaction to his book in Florida has been very positive. He was even invited to address a gathering of retired teachers. "Ocala is a very conservative town," he said. One thing Mr. Waters learned in interviewing citizens who had used their firearms in self-defense is that they had usually done everything they could to avoid killing someone. [Letting a violent criminal go allows him to kill others.] "Most Americans have a healthy respect for human life," he said. Not criminals, though. "I think a lot of them are sociopathic. In other cases, their minds are so clouded with drugs, such as crack cocaine, they go out to rob and steal to get these drugs, and it doesn't matter who gets in their way." Copyright 1999 News World Communications, Inc. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Mar 99 18:43:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: FW: Lawmakers Urge New Gun Regulation Powers - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 10:53:01 -0500 From: Mark A. Smith Subject: Lawmakers Urge New Gun Regulation Powers Dammit. They just won't stop will they ?! U.S. Lawmakers Urge New Gun Regulation Powers 1.52 p.m. ET (1853 GMT) March 2, 1999 WASHINGTON -- A group of U.S. lawmakers offered legislation Tuesday that would allow the government to regulate the manufacture, sale and distribution of guns like it does other consumer products. The bill, backed by New Jersey Sen. Robert Torricelli and Rhode Island Rep. Patrick Kennedy, both Democrats, would make firearms subject to government regulations in the same way as everyday products such as toys, toasters and washing machines. "It is outrageous that our government is powerless to regulate this industry and is unable to warn consumers of the risks which guns may pose,'' Kennedy told a news conference. Under the bill, called the Firearms Safety and Consumer Protection Act, the Treasury Department's Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms would regulate the manufacture and sale of guns, develop safety standards and evaluate product safety. It would have the power to restrict guns that posed an unreasonable risk of death or injury, and set a penalty of $500 for civil violations of the act. A host of proposals for restrictions on guns have died in Congress amid fierce Republican opposition since the 1994 passage of the Brady law requiring federal background checks for anyone purchasing a weapon from a licensed gun dealer. The bill was named after former White House spokesman James Brady, who was shot and wounded during the 1981 assassination attempt on President Ronald Reagan. Kennedy said the new legislation would be a first step toward regulation of the industry. Supporters said it could serve as a model for negotiated settlements of lawsuits filed against the gun industry by mayors and individuals. A federal jury in Brooklyn, N.Y., earlier this month found gunmakers liable for shootings with illegally obtained handguns because of negligent marketing and distribution practices. Several U.S. cities have filed lawsuits seeking to hold the gun industry accountable for firearms violence. comments@foxnews.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 11:55:53 -0700 From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy) Subject: Re: "The Best Defense" On Thu, 04 Mar 99 18:43:00 -0700, scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) posted: >THE WASHINGTON TIMES March 2, 1999 > >Stories of Saved Lives aim to Erase Gun-Owning Stigma >------------------------------------- >By Robert Stacy McCain >------------------------------------- [...] > >The stories were chosen "for dramatic effect," Mr. Waters said, even >though he explains that most instances of armed self-defense end >peacefully as soon as a criminal sees that his intended victim has a >gun. [Brandishing, IMO, unless the criminal is apprehended. Otherwise >this merely advises the escaping criminal to conduct the next crime >more stealthily and prey upon the unarmed. Very uncharitable. - Scott] > >"There are a lot of stories where someone would come up to try to carjack >a car, and the driver would pull a gun and the guy would run away," Mr. >Waters said. Having a gun "may have saved [the driver's] life, but there's >not much drama in that." [And killed the next guy.] [...] You have an interesting, and troubling concept of "charity" Scott. Being trained to use a gun in self defense and being trained in the safe, legal apprehension of criminals are two VERY seperate issues. The one thing that makes handguns such good means of self-defense is that fact they require a relatively small amount of training (or physical ability) to be used safely and effectively when compared to other forms of self defense or combat. Ask a cop how many hours of training he needed to become profficient at using his gun vs how many hours of training (and how much physical ability) he needed in order to learn how to apprehend a criminal without simply killing the crook or subjecting himself to grave harm. Do you suggest that only those able and trained to apprehend a criminal carry a gun for self defense? A person sitting in a car is in no position to run down a fleeing would-be carjacker and apprehend him. The law, and I believe most people's morals, prohibit the use of deadly force unless there is reasonable belief your life, or the life of another innocent person is IMMEDIATELY threatened. Shooting a fleeing would-be carjacker, thief, rapist, etc, in the back is legally (civilally and criminally) dangerous, and morally questionable. The logical conclusion of your argument is that a gun should NEVER be displayed unless you are either going to apprehend the bad guy yourself OR shoot him dead if you are unable to apprehend him. Some 90% of the times a gun is "used" to prevent a crime, it is never fired and in the vast majority of those cases, the criminal flees. Your thinking would elminate the vast majority of the times a person protects themselves witha gun. Apply this same faulty logic to other situations. I have an alarm system on my car and house. I drive an old, ugly car without a stereo. I have stickers and lights on both indicating to potential criminals that alarms are present. I have a large dog at home. I am also fanatical about locking my doors (home and car) and taking my keys with me. Does this not encourage thieves to avoid my car and home in favor of the newer car with a stereo and without an alarm, with the keys in the ignition, or the home without an alarm, with the doors unlocked or garage door open, and without a dog? By adding alarms (and a dog) and locking doors I've made no attempt to even identify a criminal, much less apprehend or kill him. Gads, just driving with your doors locked and windows up is one first step to avoiding car jackings as someone with windows rolled down and doors unlocked is a much easier tarket. Do you not lock your bike when leaving it in public? Did you ever consider that by properly locking your bike you are encouraging thieves to victimize someone who hasn't locked their bike? Do you feel any responsibility because you have not taken additional measures to apprehend the person who would have otherwise stolen you bike? Does this make me "uncharitable"? Of course not. It means I've taken responsibility for myself. Others would be wise to do likewise. But their lack of preparation does not shift a burden onto my shoulders to take extraordinary (and potentially illegal) measures to apprehend or kill a criminal. That remains true whether we are talking about locking doors and adding alarms to discourage criminals or whether we are talking about "brandishing" a weapon to end a crime before it begins. And thank you for posting the article. - -- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on | these things I'm fairly certain 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it. "The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so." -- Adolf Hitler - - ------------------------------ End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #129 ***********************************