From: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com (utah-firearms-digest) To: utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: utah-firearms-digest V2 #134 Reply-To: utah-firearms-digest Sender: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk utah-firearms-digest Tuesday, May 11 1999 Volume 02 : Number 134 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:35:31 -0600 From: "David Sagers" Subject: If we don't do it, who will? Received: from wvc ([204.246.130.34]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 08:57:08 -0600 Received: from kendaco.telebyte.com by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA16741; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 08:39:12 -0600 Received: (from petidomo@localhost) by kendaco.telebyte.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA03964; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 07:50:10 -0700 Received: from smtp1.gte.net (smtp1.gte.net [207.115.153.30]) by kendaco.telebyte.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA03960 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 07:50:09 -0700 Received: from gte.net (1Cust68.tnt1.harrisonburg.va.da.uu.net [153.37.233.68]) by smtp1.gte.net with ESMTP for ; id JAA04109 Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:49:41 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <37287156.414AC927@gte.net> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 10:48:54 -0400 From: Robert the Rotten To: NRA-ILA-EVC@kendaco.telebyte.com Subject: Re: Vote in this poll References: <19990429.090849.-219473.23.RC_Hayes1@juno.com> Reply-To: NRA-ILA-EVC@kendaco.telebyte.com Sender: NRA-ILA-EVC-owner@kendaco.telebyte.com Precedence: list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Re Royce's comments on ABC: In a sense, attacks on the NRA by the media are a compliment. But they also lay a heavy burden on our shoulders, because they are essentially correct in saying that the only thing blocking a flood of unconstitutional gun-control legislation is the opposition of the NRA. The public agrees with us and complains about its rights, but it DOESN'T take the trouble to respond to polls and write to Congress, let alone get involved in elections. To steal a slogan from PBS: If we don't do it, who will? Bob Strippy 6th VA ****Owning a firearm is a RIGHT, not a privilege**** The NRA ILA EVC closed mailing list is NOT an=20 official list of the NRA, but is offered as=20 a tool by Jim Kendall (WA-1st District EVC) and Telebyte NW. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send an email request to=20 NRA-1st@telebyte.com *********** Victory 1998! *************** - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 May 99 11:07:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Victim Disarmament * CARBON COPY: * Original was to Reader.Advocate@sltrib.com (Shinaka Sykes) Dear Shinika Sykes; Thank you for returning my call and leaving a message on my answering machine while I cancelled my subscription to The Salt Lake Tribune with the Newspaper Agency Corporation on another line. I appreciate the fact that back in the sixties (before the advent of the Newspaper Agency Corporation) The Salt Lake Tribune treated its carriers far better and more fairly than did the Deseret News, which took an oversupply for granted and expected papers to be delivered by 5:30 pm, even when they were not delivered to the station until 5:15, had to be stuffed, and then expected delivery to nonsubscribers in the same number as they had paying customers. This double-duty was imposed the first day of my service as a substitute. I also delivered the Trib, whose dealings with carriers in my experience was beyond reproach. However, those are bygones. Asking us to be dog meat shows that this integrity has entirely evaporated. Obviously Marie Cocco's column and the attached cartoon on page A9 of The Salt Lake Tribune on Monday May 3, 1999 is not the first time I have read an editorial with which I disagree. However, the Trib has long had a policy that only elitists and statist flunkies should have access to guns. It has become increasingly apparent that the aim is to leave others totally susceptible to crime as well as governmentally-organized depredations and even genocide. Your paper has hammered this stance unrelentingly since the tragedy at Columbine HS in Littleton, Colorado, where by tyrannical edicts all victims were left defenseless. In fact, on Friday your paper, by printing Jack Germond and Jules Witcover's scurrilous hit-piece, railed on Gov. Jesse Ventura for expressing this fact. Sunday's paper had myriad anti-gun editorials and articles, with only a lame counterpoint from Rep. Barr, who advocates draconian enforcement of "laws" which, in my opinion, ought not exist in the first place, in opposition. Where are the editorials from L. Neil Smith, Vin Suprynowicz, or Neal Knox? The cartoon attached to Ms. Cocco's column is exceedingly disingenuous. Your only proposal is to "GET RID OF THE GUNS". The problem in these school shootings is that the guns of those shot at and their supposed protectors had already been gotten rid of. Should you repent of your oppressive and murderous position please inform me so I may reinstate my subscription to The Salt Lake Tribune. Scott Bergeson scott.bergeson@ucs.org - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 15:10:57 -0400 From: "Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises, Inc. and Shire.Net LLC" Subject: Re: Another poll - needs help. Vote early & often (fwd) (fwd) Looks like you can vote more than once Chad - ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Date: Tuesday, May 04, 1999, 11:17 AM +0000 From: Bill Vance To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: Another poll - needs help. Vote early & often (fwd) On May 4, C. D. Tavares wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows - --------------------] >I watched the numbers roll up in 10's on this one. Appears 3 people >from HCI are wearing out their mouses on it. > >http://www.bouldernews.com/cgi-bin/pollvault/pv_vote.cgi >---------------------------------------------------------------- >The Right to Self Defense is a Fundamental Human Right - RKBA >---------------------------------------------------------------- Didn't get me there. Try: http://www.bouldernews.com/news/statewest/421shoot1.shtml and vote from the "Reaction" column on the right-hand side. We are really losing this one -- 12%-88% against CO CCW. - -- Tavares@alum.mit.edu http://home.earthlink.net/~cdtavares [------------------------- end of forwarded message - ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - - ---------- End Forwarded Message ---------- Pengar Enterprises, Inc. and Shire.Net LLC Web and Macintosh Consulting -- full service web hosting Chad Leigh chad@pengar.com chad@shire.net - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 15:17:40 -0400 From: "Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises, Inc. and Shire.Net LLC" Subject: Clinton don't approve of Milosevic's methods (fwd) (fwd) Some people want to know about this. I am out of state now and so thought I'd pass this one. Chad - ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Date: Tuesday, May 04, 1999, 11:18 AM +0000 From: Bill Vance To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com Subject: Clinton don't approve of Milosevic's methods (fwd) Do you know anyone down in Salt Lake City? We can't afford to let this sort of thing happen unremarked, anywhere, but we can't just jump salty over nothing either. On May 4, RichSlick@aol.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows - --------------------] Subj: Fwd: Salt Lake City - SWAT Teams attack park patrons Date: 5/3/99 11:31:04 PM EST From: elan@carroll.com (Devon Joshua., Millwood is Kidnaped by N.J. Div. of Youth & Family Services; Held Hostage by Darlene Stewart. 201- 868-6237) >From: >Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 16:06:54 EDT >Subject: Fwd: Salt Lake City - SWAT Teams attack park patrons >To: elan@carroll.com > > >Return-Path: >Received: from rly-zd01.mx.aol.com (rly-zd01.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.225]) > by air-zd05.mail.aol.com (v59.4) with SMTP; Mon, 03 May 1999 14:48:40 > -0400 >Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net > [207.217.120.12]) > by rly-zd01.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) > with ESMTP id OAA17758; > Mon, 3 May 1999 14:48:33 -0400 (EDT) >Received: from chuckm (1Cust60.tnt7.phoenix.az.da.uu.net [63.14.199.60]) > by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA17885; > Mon, 3 May 1999 11:47:20 -0700 (PDT) >Message-Id: <199905031847.LAA17885@harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net> >Comments: Authenticated sender is >From: "Solutions International" >To: freedom@earthlink.net >Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 11:46:41 +0000 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT >Subject: Salt Lake City - SWAT Teams attack park patrons >Priority: normal >X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.41) > >Dear Friends, > >A few days ago, I receive this rather disturbing e-mail forwarded >from a friend. It sounded so outlandish that I didn't feel >comfortable forwarding it at that point. However, I have now >confirmed this information is indeed true and is something to which >we should all pay close attention. This is an example of how >pseudo-Martial Law was implemented for all the wrong reasons in the >wrong place at the wrong time. Will we stand by and let more of this >abuse happen in other parts of the country? > >Please read and take whatever action you deem appropriate. > >Peace and Prosperity, > >Jeff > > > >------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- >Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 06:57:07 -0700 (PDT) >From: "L.D. Parable" >To: Jeffrey Howard > >Jeff, > >Please pass this along to your group: > >Date: 29 Apr 1999 18:44:46 GMT>Newsgroups: alt.society.civil-liberties >>To: BobHirschfeldJD@how2.org>Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com >>References: <01be914a$38d45700$e83384ce@kfvtjuml>>From: >itsmoi@aol.com (ItsMoi) >>Subject: MARSHALL LAW PROVEN IN UTAH SOS >>X-UIDL: 52ec387f2720c939c6c3935b4b99a4c9> >> My name is Claudia K. White. I am a 35 yo female, with a >Bachelorsdegree of >>science. I live in SLC, Utah. One week ago sunday Cheif of >policeOrtega, >>sent a swat teamm into Liberty park. The religious and the rest ofthe >>community go to the park every sunday. Which consists of >mostlyfamilies, >>Vetrans, indians, young teens and small children. ( This is our >1stamendment >>right).> The Swat team proceed to sweep the park as if it was Penn >State or >Ten..>Square. The Swat team was fully armed in riot gear and weapons. >People where>bulgened with billy clubs. Ticketed and force out of the >park. >> I personall y was attacked hit 6 times and was hit by a billy >clubwhich >>factured my fibula on my left leg. My library book " The >USConstitution and >>Case Summaries" was torn from my hands and ripped apart. >> We where marched out of the park by the Swat team. At no time >didwe resist >>arrest orshow any violence towards the officers. >> We left the boundaries of the park as ordered to do. At which >timewe got >>permission from the property owner ( approx 1300 so. & 600 East) >tostay on his >>property. He too goes to the drum circle. >> At this time cheif of Police Ortega arrived at the scene. >Ipersonally >>tried to reason with him to no avail. Police Cheif Ortega would >noteven speak >>with us, me or anyother Adult at the scene; for by this time >thecrowd had >>dispersed and only a handful of mostly under age kids where present. >> Cheif Ortega ordered his troops to began a military type attack >onthe crowd >>of teens and the few adults left. The officers, approximately 20 >withfull >>riot gear, had fully loaded semi automatic weapons pointed >executionstyle at >>our backs as they marched us off the private property and up the >cityowned >>street,( 4 city blocks) protecting themselves with bullet >proofsheilds. The >>Swat team forced us across the street to another park and left >thescene. >> At no time did the Police return and tell any of us we could >reenter the >>park to gather our belongings, our vehicles, or did they tend to >theinjured. >> . 16 citations were issued for alcohol and small amounts of >maujuana.None for >>weapons. The city as of this time has not taken any action >agianstOrtega the >>officers or Mayor Deedee Corridini, Nor offered any type of >publicapology. >> The Mayor, Cheif of police and the Governer hold equal liability >inthis >>incidence. For the evening before was Earthday at the Liberty Park. >> At the Earth Jam festival Mayor Deedee Corridini sent >arepresentative to >>speak on her and the IOC plans of building a apatheater in the park. >This >>would entail digging up a old burial ground and A historic home >ofIsaac Chase >>and Brigham Young, built in the early 1800's. >> I personally have contacted the ACLU and NPR radio. The News mediais >>rufusing to run this as a National emergency. >> The Attorney General of Utah< Jan Graham, has no Civil authority >inthe State >>of Utah. As Governer Mike Leavitt and the house of represntatives >ofUtah voted >>and stripped her of these rights. >> This proves the well known theory that the United States of >Americais no >>longer and hasn't been for quite sometime, governed by >theConstitution of the >>United States of America, nor Virginia Bill of Rights. Otherwise >putthe United >>States at least for the early 60's has been under Marshall Law. >APolice >>state, as was Vietnam. >> I believe I speak for all Americans when isay we are not >AntiPolice, We >>are Anti Police State. We are willing to give to Ceasar what >isCeasar's. >>But after that the federal government is requied to acts >asMagistrates, just >>and the Bill of rights directs them to do " Serve the People"..... >Inother >>worlds they are to be Noble and act as our waiters, (ie. servants,civil >>servants).> Please contact your Local and federal government on this >matter. >And please>contact the Media. As I have tried with no avail in Salt >Lake City >Utah. Be>reassured I have contacted everyone in my State and the ACLU. >> We all must speak out on this matter or the proverbial they >willcontinue >>running, destroying, and robbing us of our " inalienable, >infeasible"rights >>of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". >> I would also like to note on behalf of Utah State that Senator >OrinHatch, >>Mayor Deedee Corridini, and Cheif of Police Ortega, are not even >fromthe State >>of Utah. The aforementioned, Governer Mike Leavitt, President >Clintonand VP Al >>Gore. are refusing to face this as a matter of Nation Importance >andState of >>Emergency. This I hold to be of gross Maladministeration > >SOLUTIONS INTERNATIONAL >Maximizing Personal Potential >http://www.1999.com/solutions > >"No man is free until he learns to do his own thinking >and gains the courage to act on his own personal initiative." >- Napoleon Hill > A PUBLIC DEFENDER IS A "JUDAS GOAT" FIND AND POST THE LINCOLN PRIVATE PAPERS NON-CONSTITUTIONAL, AND UN-CONSTITUTIONAL ARE NOT THE SAME THING To receive posts from this list send an E-MAIL to me with the word "subscribe" in the subject box. To be removed from this list send a post to me with the word "unsubscribe" in the subject box. [------------------------- end of forwarded message - ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - - ---------- End Forwarded Message ---------- Pengar Enterprises, Inc. and Shire.Net LLC Web and Macintosh Consulting -- full service web hosting Chad Leigh chad@pengar.com chad@shire.net - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 18:25:14 -0600 From: charles hardy Subject: Off topic but opportunity for community service The American Red Cross relies pretty heavily upon blood draws at various college campuses to meet their blood needs. With BYU, UofU, and USU now either out, or close to being out, on summer break it is becomming difficult for the Red Cross to meet their blood needs. So, if you are healthy, and have not donated in the last 8 weeks, please consider stopping in at their donation center and donating blood. They are located on 900 East 6616 South (just north of I-215) and are open for walk in donations Monday and Friday 7am - Noon and Wednesday 2pm - 7pm. No apt needed. They will ask for, but do not require, a social security number. I always decline to give my SS number out and they have no problem with that and happily take my blood. They do require some form of picture ID--and are fairly used to seeing CCW permits used for that purpose. :) Also, my wife tells me that when they draw blood from police officers who are armed, they will require the officer to unload and/or place his holstered sidearm under the cot or otherwise out of reach. Apparantly, on the very rare occassion that a police officer blacks out while giving blood, they have a habit of immediatly reaching for their sidearm as they come to and before they are fully cognizant. Obviously, if you CCW properly, they won't know if you are armed. However, I would think proper safety would dictate that if you are not VERY sure will not black out and subsequently reach for your gun while giving blood, you should make sure it is far enough beyond your reach while donating that you are sure to be fully cognizant before being able to get to it. charles. ================================================================== Charles C. Hardy ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 12:43:04 -0600 From: charles hardy Subject: DesNews poll needs your vote This week's Deseret News Poll at (middle right hand side of page) asks, "Question: Do you think Utah Gov. Mike Leavitt should convene a special session of the Legislature in response to recent incidents of gun violence, providing a forum for lawmakers to deal with weapons-related issues?" Current results are encouraging: Yes 141 votes (33%) No 279 votes (65%) Other / Unsure 11 votes (3%) Let's make sure they are overwhelming! ================================================================== Charles C. Hardy ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 12:52:47 -0600 From: charles hardy Subject: Letter to Editors needed This editorial from today's DesNews is too good to pass up. Every paper in the State needs to receive multiple letters to the editor and full length opinion pieces pointing out the fact that Vermont is the only State in the Union to fully respect the people's right to an effective armed defense. They have LESS gun control than any other State in the Union. No permits needed to carry a weapon. No gun free zones, not even the State Capital. Please, write a letter. Best kinds of acts to copycat Deseret News editorial By last count, Vermont was the only state in the union in which a teenager had neither attempted nor threatened to attempt a massacre similar to the one two weeks ago at Columbine High in Littleton, Colo. Utah is no exception. Officials at Salt Lake, Granite and Jordan school districts have fielded bomb threats almost daily. Students at Central Davis Junior High turned in a suspicious classmate. Police then found gunpowder and pipes at his house, and a pipe bomb at another house. Perhaps most frightening of all, police in Duchesne County arrested two teenage boys who had begun wearing the black trench coats of the Columbine killers and had threatened to blow up the school prom. They found live ammunition and spent shells in the boys' lockers, but no bombs. Both boys said they were only joking. Evil acts do indeed influence others. For some reason, despite the horrors of such a crime, some people want to at least threaten to duplicate it. However, we suspect the opposite also is true. Acts of goodness, of heroism, of nobility, courage and bravery, also influence others. News, by its nature, is represented by abnormal or unusual behavior. That's why the negative after-effects of Columbine receive so much attention. But a little perspective is in order. Americans may think their nation is unraveling like a frayed cloth. That's not true. Columbine High provided ample evidence that society is filled with goodness, and that it is particularly evident among the rising generation. First, consider Cassie Bernall. She was the one willing to die for her faith when the gunmen asked her if she believed in God. As Time Magazine noted, she surely must have known what the safe answer was. Instead, she faced her tormentors and said, "There is a God, and you need to follow along God's path." For this, she was killed. Consider other acts that day. One young man lay atop his sister and a friend, sacrificing his own body to shield theirs. Another boy overcame the pain of bullet wounds in his own leg and managed to move an explosive away from others. These were reflex actions. None of these young people spent the day analyzing how they would react under such circumstances. They acted spontaneously based on their own core values and morals. What bravery! What courage! What nobility! And, yes, what wonderful examples to follow. Acts of goodness don't often qualify as news. They don't as much attention as the less frequent acts of evil. Yet they abound everywhere, and when they are exhibited as grandly as they were under the terrible circumstances at Columbine, they ought to find their way into the hearts of all. They ought to inspire copycats everywhere. ================================================================== Charles C. Hardy ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 10:53:32 -0600 From: charles hardy Subject: LTE needs reponse 've already got a LTE in the queue, so will somebody PLEASE respond to this moron. Maybe pulling Hitler's quote about joining the military if you want to shoot would be good one. The recent court decision out of texas clearly articulating the history and context of the 2nd amnd and the resulting decision that it does protect an individual right might not be bad either. From today's desnews LTE. Read the U.S. Constitution In the aftermath of all of the shootings here in Salt Lake City and in Colorado, I was hoping that some of our leaders would come to their senses. If one of them would go back to really read the Constitution along with a history lesson in the atrocities that the British Empire was perpetrating against the Colonies. These are the reasons for the Bill of Rights and securing the safety of each state in the Union. Our own U.S. history is the part that we have all forgotten. The Second Amendment was written to guarantee each new state the right to form a state militia, not to facilitate the individual ownership of guns as the "Right to die by my own hand" (spelled NRA) groups would have you believe. The Second Amendment was written because the British attempted to confiscate all weapons for their own army. Last time I checked, we have been free from enemies on our sovereign soil since the War of 1812. I do agree that we have too many laws and not enough prosecution. I have a simple but effective remedy: two laws replacing everything already on the books. 1. No handguns and no military assault rifles or rapid fire weapons authorized within the boundaries of the United States. Possession or use of one of these weapons will result in automatic imprisonment for 20 years. 2. Hunting rifles are allowed and a required license process for proof of appropriate training and eligibility to own one. No convicted felons are allowed to own a hunting rifle. If someone has a burning desire to use a handgun or an assault rifle might I recommend joining local Army National Guard or Army Reserve units — we could use more recruits. This is the only intent of the Second Amendment, not the proliferation of murder devices. I lived in Europe for over nine years serving in the armed forces, and I never felt ill at ease as I do in the United States when traveling at night. Weapons were strictly controlled, even with difficult-to-maintain borders. Our society has deteriorated down to a bunch of out of control gunslingers and common sense be damned. I am still waiting for a literate leader to come forth and provide some sense to a gut shot public. Curtis A. Wood West Jordan ================================================================== Charles C. Hardy ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 16:31:58 -0600 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: "What goes around, comes around" Received: from wvc ([204.246.130.34]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Fri, 07 May 1999 13:36:20 -0600 Received: from kendaco.telebyte.com by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA26945; Fri, 7 May 1999 13:18:06 -0600 Received: (from petidomo@localhost) by kendaco.telebyte.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA10241; Fri, 7 May 1999 12:29:14 -0700 Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.85]) by kendaco.telebyte.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA10237 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 12:29:12 -0700 Received: from oemcomputer (sdn-ar-001fltampP264.dialsprint.net [168.191.74.26]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA15551; Fri, 7 May 1999 12:27:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <004d01be98bf$92a33ea0$1a4abfa8@oemcomputer> From: "Charles Hoskinson" To: "USMA Forum" Subject: "What goes around, comes around" Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 15:26:55 -0400 Reply-To: NRA-ILA-EVC@kendaco.telebyte.com Sender: NRA-ILA-EVC-owner@kendaco.telebyte.com Precedence: list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_E7B1EEE2.7A1B7523" - --=_E7B1EEE2.7A1B7523 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I read in a Rocky Mountain Post article this morning that the mother of = the geezer who provided the TEC-9 to the Columbine shooters was an avid = member of Handgun Control, Inc. When asked about the incident, she said (OWTTE), "I can't understand it. = He was never around guns at home". As the Eddie Eagle award-winning gun safety program promotes, (Extract) "Talk to your child about guns. Discuss their uses and history. By = removing the mystery surrounding guns, your child will be far less curious = about guns, and more likely to follow safety rules. Make sure your child understands the difference between a toy gun and = a real gun, and the difference between "pretend" and real life. Explain to = your young children that guns on television are not real, and are shown = being used incorrectly. If you allow your child to play with toy guns, use them to teach safe = gun handling" (I believe we know what the basic rules are: safe pointing, = trigger-finger off until ready, keep unloaded until ready for use). Probably wishes now she had met "Eddie Eagle". Chuck Hoskinson "US Army, Retired ... and still serving proudly" - --=_E7B1EEE2.7A1B7523 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Part.001"
I read in a Rocky Mountain Post article this morning that the mother of the geezer who provided the TEC-9 to the Columbine shooters was an avid member of Handgun Control, Inc.
When asked about the incident, she said (OWTTE), "I can't understand it. He was never around guns at home".
 
As the Eddie Eagle award-winning gun safety program promotes, (Extract)
 
    "Talk to your child about guns. Discuss their uses and history. By removing the mystery surrounding guns, your child will be far less curious about guns, and more likely to follow safety rules.
 
    Make sure your child understands the difference between a toy gun and a real gun, and the difference between "pretend" and real life. Explain to your young children that guns on television are not real, and are shown being used incorrectly.
 
    If you allow your child to play with toy guns, use them to teach safe gun handling" (I believe we know what the basic rules are: safe pointing, trigger-finger off until ready, keep unloaded until ready for use).
 
Probably wishes now she had met "Eddie Eagle".
 
 
Chuck Hoskinson
"US Army, Retired
... and still serving proudly"
- --=_E7B1EEE2.7A1B7523-- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 May 99 14:55:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: Re: Columbine Propaganda - ---------- Forwarded excerpt ---------- Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 19:12:56 -0400 From: ralph@TeamInfinity.com Subject: GOLD:LONDON DUMPS 415 tonnes of GOLD COMMUNIQUE #2129 - ----------------- Janet "RHINO" Reno has come out with her own PROPAGANDA in the wake of the COLUMBINE MASSACRE, she has teamed up with MTV and DOJ will be distributing PROPAGANDA PACKAGES to schools throughout Amerika, get yours, or one for a friend via a pay-phone toll free 1-877-284-1188. TO RECEIVE email from ralph: send email to ralph@TeamInfinity.com and in the Subject make sure your email address and the word GO-RALPH (no spaces) is in the subject. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 17:30:17 -0600 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Fwd: SWAT Team Misfire? by James Bovard Received: from wvc ([204.246.130.34]) by icarus.ci.west-valley.ut.us; Tue, 11 May 1999 10:37:02 -0600 Received: from fs1.mainstream.net by wvc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA00876; Tue, 11 May 1999 10:18:40 -0600 Received: from (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA24888; Tue, 11 May 1999 12:27:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 12:27:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.net Reply-To: freematt@coil.com Originator: noban@mainstream.net Sender: noban@mainstream.net Precedence: first-class From: Matthew Gaylor To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: SWAT Team Misfire? by James Bovard X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 08:29:49 -0400 To: freematt@coil.com From: Jim Bovard Subject: Littleton's Lesson: Don't Count on Police Washington Times, May 11, 1999 Commentary Section p. 17 SWAT Team Misfire? by James Bovard Federal and Colorado officials are seeking to transform the April 20 disaster at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colorado into a law enforcement triumph. Attorney General Janet Reno praised the local police response as "extraordinary" - "a textbook" example of "how to do it the right way." President Clinton declared Saturday that "we look with admiration at the... the police officers who rushed to the scene to save lives." However, the excruciatingly slow response by SWAT teams and other lawmen to the killings in progress turned a multiple homicide into a historic massacre. The pathetic excuses being offered vivify how law enforcement has no legal liability to people they fail to protect. The Colorado killings offer stark evidence why citizens cannot rely on government for their personal safety. "Close enough for government work" is the motto for the defenders of the law enforcement response. Jefferson County deputy Neil Gardner, the first policeman to shoot and miss at the killers, said on NBC's Dateline: "I think with exchanging fire, it did allow some--some people that are--that were fleeing the scene to get out of the building. I always will have to live with the fact that, maybe if I could have dropped him, maybe it would have saved one or two more lives." However, at the time of this gunfire exchange, the teens had apparently only killed two people. If Gardner had hit one of the teens, it might have unnerved his co-killer and led to a surrender - or an earlier suicide - and thus saved as many as 11 lives. Two other policemen arrived on the scene, fired at one of the killers - and missed. Jefferson County Sheriff John Stone later explained: "We had initial people there right away, but we couldn't get in. We were way outgunned." This wasn't Beider-Meinhoff: this wasn't Abu Nidal's terrorist cliche: this was two relatively inexperienced teens with a few cheap firearms. If policemen on the scene actually felt outgunned, they could have quickly retrieved automatic weapons or other heavy-duty firearms from patrol cars. Many local SWAT teams descended on the high school parking lot and vicinity after the shooting started. But none of the SWAT teams confronted the killers. Police spokesmen said the SWATs were not sent in "for fear that they might set off a new gunfight," as the New York Times reported. At least there was no danger of a "gunfight" when Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were executing unarmed students. Sheriff Stone justified the non-response: "We didn't want to have one SWAT team shooting another SWAT team." It seemingly never occurred to police not to send in all the SWAT teams. Apparently, the more police who respond to a crisis, the more incapable any policeman becomes of doing anything to stop the killings. The police response also seemed paralyzed by concerns for "officer safety." Steve Davis, spokesman for the Jefferson County Sheriff's Department, said, "We had no idea who was a victim and who was a suspect. And a dead police officer would not be able to help anyone." But the "suspects" were brazenly walking around with sawed off shotguns and firing at will and were identified in the first few minutes as wearing trenchcoats. Donn Kraemer of the Lakewood SWAT team explained: "If we went in and tried to take them and got shot, we would be part of the problem. We're supposed to bring order to chaos, not add to the chaos." Some police seem to see their role as historians - entering the building after the crime spree is over and carefully noting where each dead body lay. Is it necessary to have SWAT teams with the most advanced equipment and machine guns in order to distribute body bags after the carnage is over? Law enforcement spokesmen are now bragging that they successfully contained the two teens in the school after the killing rampage started. Sheriff Stone proclaimed last Saturday that "early intervention" by the cops who shot at the killers and missed "saved one heck of a lot of kids' lives, by pinning these guys down [Harris and Klebold spent most of their time in the library, where they killed 10 people], by putting them on the defensive, instead of the offensive [except for the 13 murder victims], and subsequently probably led to their suicide." Yet, one of the youths left a suicide note before the carnage began. SWAT teams may have become an impediment to public safety. There were probably plenty of individual policemen with the courage to enter the building and go after the shooters while the killings continued. But the militarization of law enforcement seems to have also resulted in police becoming bureaucratized - if not Dilbertized. President Clinton, Attorney General Reno, and others are claiming that the Colorado tragedy proves the need for stricter gun control. The Washington Post used the tragedy to call for the confiscation of all handguns. But the more successful gun control is in disarming citizens, the more dependent people become on government officials for protection - protection that is often slow and unreliable. When government ineptitude results in unnecessary killings - well, the survivors can write a letter to their congressman or state legislator. A federal appeals court declared in 1982, "There is no constitutional right to be protected by the state against being murdered by criminals or madmen." Citizens have no effective, enforceable right to police protection - and both police and criminals know this. Is there anyone who has closely followed this tragedy who would trust the lives of their children to the Colorado SWAT teams? The police can be trusted to protect themselves. But what about the rest of us? TAGLINE: Bovard is the author of Freedom in Chains: The Rise of the State & the Demise of the Citizen (St. Martin's Press, 1999). [to see first chapter of Freedom in Chains: http://www.jamesbovard.com ] ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt@coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per = week) Matthew Gaylor,1933 E. Dublin-Granville Rd.,#176, Columbus, OH 43229 Archived at http://www.egroups.com/list/fa/ ************************************************************************** - - ------------------------------ End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #134 ***********************************