From: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com (utah-firearms-digest) To: utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: utah-firearms-digest V2 #160 Reply-To: utah-firearms-digest Sender: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk utah-firearms-digest Wednesday, October 6 1999 Volume 02 : Number 160 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 25 Sep 99 17:35:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: FW: ALERT: Scuttle the Scam: A Slick New Way To Destroy "Gun Control" - -------- Original Message -------- Subject: ALERT: Scuttle the Scam: A Slick New Way To Destroy "Gun Control" Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 14:31:38 -0700 From: JPFO Alerts Reply-To: webmaster@jpfo.org To: jpfo_alerts@topica.com ALERT FROM JEWS FOR THE PRESERVATION OF FIREARMS OWNERSHIP America's Aggressive Civil Rights Organization September 23, 1999 Scuttle the Scam: A Slick New Way To Destroy "Gun Control" "Gun control" survives as an idea because most Americans believe one single myth: "YOU DON'T NEED A GUN BECAUSE THE POLICE PROTECT YOU FROM CRIME." If you don't know exactly why that statement is a lie, then you cannot destroy "gun control." If you can't effectively rebut that statement, then you cannot make the strongest positive case for private firearms ownership. Anti-gun lobbyists get away with proposing to completely disarm the citizens only because most citizens just assume the police will protect them. That assumption is false. The police cannot protect everyone -- IN FACT THE POLICE USUALLY HAVE NO LEGAL DUTY TO PROTECT ANYONE. Dial 911 and Die, the new book available now, proves this fact. For nearly every American state and territory, this book shows how the police owe no legal duty to protect individuals from crime. THE POLICE IN MOST PLACES DO NOT EVEN HAVE TO COME WHEN YOU CALL. Gun prohibitionist lobbyists, politicians and media have sold Americans the myth of police protection. Schools teach youngsters to "Dial 911." There was a television program with "911" in the title. That phone number is perhaps the best known in the country. A generation of Americans has come to trust a telephone number for self- defense. Government authorities and media pundits never told Americans about the dark side of 911. Too many Americans have dialed 911 and died because the police did not or could not help them. Dial 911 and Die kills the logical root of "gun control" ideology. Erase Americans' blind faith in police protection, and a rational person who faces a risk of criminal attack on himself or his loved ones would never voluntarily allow himself to be disarmed. ERASE THE MYTH OF POLICE PROTECTION, AND "GUN CONTROL: DIES AS AN IDEA ... PERMANENTLY. How often do the gun prohibitionists use the recent spate of murderous attacks on schools, businesses, community centers and churches as reasons for "gun control"? When you understand the concept in Dial 911 and Die, those reasons evaporate. Each of those cases highlights that the police were powerless and unable to prevent or stop those attacks. Emergency 911 service is available almost everywhere in the U.S. -- and it was worthless against those armed attackers. The unarmed victims of criminal attack and their families cannot get compensation from the city governments that failed to protect them in these famous terrible cases. The only people on location when the attackers came were the victims themselves. At the same time, the prevailing laws and anti-gun culture made sure those victims were unarmed. Police help was too little, too late. THOSE MURDEROUS EVENTS DO NOT PROVE THE NEED FOR "GUN CONTROL" -- THEY PROVE THE UTTER INABILITY OF THE POLICE TO PROTECT INDIVIDUALS FROM VIOLENT CRIME. Police typically investigate crimes after the fact -- they don't prevent very many crimes. And the laws in nearly every state say that the police don't even owe a duty to protect individual citizens. Citizens are on their own -- and the sooner they know it, the better. There are many excellent arguments against "gun control." Only one argument destroys its logical root. Master that argument. Get DIAL 911 AND DIE for yourself, your local talk host, your local NRA leaders, your family, your local libraries. Read the harrowing, gut-wrenching stories of crime victims who tragically depended upon police to help. See how the courts just dismiss the victims' appeals out of hand. You'll never look at your telephone -- or your gun rights -- the same way again. To Order: One copy . . . . 11.95 postage paid 6 copies . . . . 44.95 postage paid 12 copies . . . 79.95 postage paid Case (58 books) 349.95 postage paid These are USA prices. Foreign orders call for pricing. On-line ordering: http://www.jpfo.org/dial911anddie.htm See the on-line ordering page for an image of the cover. The Liberty Crew at JPFO - ---------------------------------------------------------------- Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership PO Box 270143 Hartford, Wisconsin 53027 Phone: 414-673-9745 Fax: 414-673-9746 http://www.jpfo.org/ - ---------------------------------------------------------------- To subscribe to JPFO Alerts: send a blank e-mail to: jpfo_alerts-subscribe@topica.com Then respond to the confirmation message you will get back. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Sep 99 17:35:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: FW: GOA: Doolittle Motion Passes, 337-73 Shoot Out On Capitol Hill Results In Conflicting Messages * but pro-gun leaders win key, though symbolic, victory (Friday, September 24, 1999) -- Supporters of gun rights in the House of Representatives charged the floor today with an arsenal of high-powered arguments in defense of 2nd Amendment liberties. Led by Rep. John Doolittle (R-CA), pro-gun Republicans defied their leadership in presenting an extremely cogent case in defense of our freedoms. "It's not the right of the army," Doolittle roared. "It's not the right of the National Guard." The Second Amendment "says 'the right of the people'-- [it's] an individual right." Doolittle cited constitutional authorities from James Madison to Laurence Tribe in making his point that the Second Amendment protects an individual right. He also quoted the highly acclaimed Dr. John Lott in making the simple point that "more guns equal less crime," as he waved a copy of Lott's new book for the cameras. GOA On The Front Lines In anticipation of this floor fight, lobbyists from Gun Owners of America yesterday provided pro-gun offices with dozens of self-defense incidents from this year alone. Pro-gun Rep. Helen Chenoweth (R-ID) took the list and read self-defense example after example on the floor of the U.S. House of Representatives. "The stories go on and on," Mrs. Chenoweth concluded. "In fact, a 1997 Clinton Justice Department study found that as many as 1.5 million people use a gun in self-defense every year." The anti-gun side could offer no rebuttal to this point. Regardless, they remained entrenched in opposing the motion made by Rep. Doolittle. His motion instructs House negotiators to drop any provision that infringes on the 2nd Amendment rights of individuals-provisions like the ban on private sales at gun shows, which can only be surmounted by the buyer's submitting to a background registration check; a new gun ban for young adults; an import ban on magazines holding more than 10 rounds; etc. The Doolittle motion passed overwhelmingly by a vote of 337-73. Also, an earlier motion instructing the conferees to work every day until they reach an agreement on the crime bill was narrowly defeated. However, representatives then sent a "conflicting" message when they voted to instruct the conference members (241-167) to include gun show registration checks in the final version of the bill. The latter motion, offered by Zoe Lofgren of California, directly contradicts the Doolittle motion. While contradictory messages are not unique on Capitol Hill, one should realize that all of the motions were non-binding. The conferees could report a gun bill out of committee as early as next week, or not at all if sufficient opposition from gun owners is heard. GOP And Democratic Leaders United In Their Support For Gun Control Republican leaders like Rep. Bill McCollum (R-FL) took the floor to explain that he and many other members of the House want to impose the instant registration check at gun shows. House Judiciary Chairman, Henry Hyde (R-IL), also echoed similar opinions yesterday. On the Democratic side, the anti-gunners were led by Rep. Lofgren (D-CA). She argued that the 2nd Amendment does not protect an individual right, and that the anti-gun crime bill which is currently in conference does not conflict with the Second Amendment. ACTION: Please thank those members of Congress who spoke up so eloquently in the defense of the 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms. They are Representatives Doolittle, Chenoweth, Roscoe Bartlett (R-MD), and John Hostettler (R-IN). BUT NOT MERRILL COOK, JIM HANSEN and CHRIS CANNON. Contact Info: House of Representatives Ph: 888-449-3511 or 202-225-3121 Rep. John Doolittle (CA-4th) Ph: 202-225-2511 Fax: 202-225-5444 E-mail: doolittle@mail.house.gov Rep. Helen Chenoweth (ID-1st) Ph: 202-225-6611 Fax: 202-225-3029 E-mail: ask.helen@mail.house.gov Rep. Roscoe Bartlett (MD-6th) Ph: 202-225-2721 Fax: 202-225-2193 No e-mail Rep. John Hostettler (IN-8th) Ph: 202-225-4636 Fax: 202-225-3284 E-mail: John.Hostettler@mail.house.gov ************** Cheaper Than Dirt donates a percentage of your total order to GOA if you use http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/goa.htm to enter their online store. ************** Did someone else forward this to you? To be certain of getting up to date information, please consider subscribing to the GOA E-Mail Alert Network directly. There is no cost or obligation, and the volume of mail is quite low. To subscribe, simply send a message to goamail@gunowners.org and include the state in which you live, in either the subject or the body. To unsubscribe, reply to any alert and ask to be removed. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 18:52:48 -0700 From: Joe Waldron Subject: STROBE TALBOT'S VISION--TREASON I wonder how the Bill of Rights will fare under Talbott's vision of the future? Sounds like treason to me.... For those that believe this article to be off-topic, it's time to wake up and smell the coffee. JW XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX SUNDAY, SEPTEMBER 26, 1999 19:02:55 ET XXXXX TALBOTT: NEXT CENTURY, AMERICA WILL NOT EXIST IN CURRENT FORM, 'ALL STATES WILL RECOGNIZE A SINGLE, GLOBAL AUTHORITY' Deputy Secretary of State Strobe Talbott believes the United States may not exist in its current form in the 21st Century -- because nationhood throughout the world will become obsolete! Talbott, who is profiled in the NEW YORK TIMES on Monday [for the second time in six months], has defined, shaped and executed the Clinton administration's foreign policy. He has served at the State Department since the first day of the Clinton presidency. Just before joining the administration, Talbott wrote in TIME magazine - -- in an essay titled "The Birth of the Global Nation" -- that he is looking forward to government run by "one global authority." "Here is one optimist's reason for believing unity will prevail ... within the next hundred years ... nationhood as we know it will be obsolete; all states will recognize a single, global authority," Talbott declared in the July 20, 1992 issue of TIME. "A phrase briefly fashionable in the mid-20th century -- 'citizen of the world' -- will have assumed real meaning by the end of the 21st." Talbott continued: "All countries are basically social arrangements, accommodations to changing circumstances. No matter how permanent and even sacred they may seem at any one time, in fact they are all artificial and temporary." Talbott's belief that the United States of America and other nations are "artificial and temporary" continues to cause a rift inside of the State Department, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned. "I think we are losing sight that we work for the American taxpayer, not Russia, not Asia," one State Department veteran told the DRUDGE REPORT in Washington. "Mr. Talbott is completely consumed with world order and has alienated many career employees here. [His] attitude borders on obsession." In recent months, Talbott has come under fire for his stand on Russia. The policy of financial and political engagement with Russia as revelations pour forth of massive money-laundering schemes has made Talbott the target of critics, reports John Broder at the TIMES. "We have to be calm and steady and have a clear sense of purpose," Talbott tells Monday's NEW YORK TIMES. "One of my modest suggestions to the world is strategic patience. We have to be calm and steady and have a clear sense of purpose when that dynamic is discouraging, as it is today," Talbott tells the TIMES. Global government has proven to be slightly more complicated than one optimist dreamed. - ----------------------------------------------------------- * * NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 Section 107, this material is * distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a * prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and * educational purposes only. - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 13:35:49 -0600 From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Re: FW: ALERT: Scuttle the Scam: A Slick New Way To Destroy "Gun Control" I've read _Dial 911 and Die_ and recommend it without reservation. My full review wil be posted later this week. Sarah At 06:35 PM 09/25/1999 , you wrote: >-------- Original Message -------- >Subject: ALERT: Scuttle the Scam: A Slick New Way To Destroy "Gun Control" >Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 14:31:38 -0700 >From: JPFO Alerts >Reply-To: webmaster@jpfo.org >To: jpfo_alerts@topica.com > >ALERT FROM JEWS FOR THE PRESERVATION OF FIREARMS OWNERSHIP >America's Aggressive Civil Rights Organization > >September 23, 1999 > >Scuttle the Scam: A Slick New Way To Destroy "Gun Control" > >"Gun control" survives as an idea because most >Americans believe one single myth: > >"YOU DON'T NEED A GUN BECAUSE THE POLICE PROTECT YOU FROM CRIME." > >If you don't know exactly why that statement is a lie, >then you cannot destroy "gun control." > >If you can't effectively rebut that statement, then you >cannot make the strongest positive case for private firearms >ownership. > >Anti-gun lobbyists get away with proposing to completely disarm >the citizens only because most citizens just assume the police >will protect them. That assumption is false. The police cannot >protect everyone -- IN FACT THE POLICE USUALLY HAVE NO LEGAL >DUTY TO PROTECT ANYONE. > >Dial 911 and Die, the new book available now, proves >this fact. For nearly every American state and territory, >this book shows how the police owe no legal duty to protect >individuals from crime. THE POLICE IN MOST PLACES DO NOT >EVEN HAVE TO COME WHEN YOU CALL. > >Gun prohibitionist lobbyists, politicians and media >have sold Americans the myth of police protection. Schools >teach youngsters to "Dial 911." There was a television >program with "911" in the title. That phone number is >perhaps the best known in the country. A generation of >Americans has come to trust a telephone number for self- >defense. > >Government authorities and media pundits never told >Americans about the dark side of 911. Too many Americans >have dialed 911 and died because the police did not or could >not help them. > >Dial 911 and Die kills the logical root of "gun >control" ideology. Erase Americans' blind faith in police >protection, and a rational person who faces a risk of >criminal attack on himself or his loved ones would never >voluntarily allow himself to be disarmed. > >ERASE THE MYTH OF POLICE PROTECTION, AND "GUN CONTROL: >DIES AS AN IDEA ... PERMANENTLY. > >How often do the gun prohibitionists use the recent >spate of murderous attacks on schools, businesses, community >centers and churches as reasons for "gun control"? When you >understand the concept in Dial 911 and Die, those reasons >evaporate. Each of those cases highlights that the police >were powerless and unable to prevent or stop those attacks. >Emergency 911 service is available almost everywhere in the >U.S. -- and it was worthless against those armed attackers. > >The unarmed victims of criminal attack and their >families cannot get compensation from the city governments >that failed to protect them in these famous terrible cases. >The only people on location when the attackers came were the >victims themselves. At the same time, the prevailing laws >and anti-gun culture made sure those victims were unarmed. >Police help was too little, too late. > >THOSE MURDEROUS EVENTS DO NOT PROVE THE NEED FOR "GUN >CONTROL" -- THEY PROVE THE UTTER INABILITY OF THE POLICE TO >PROTECT INDIVIDUALS FROM VIOLENT CRIME. Police typically >investigate crimes after the fact -- they don't prevent very >many crimes. And the laws in nearly every state say that >the police don't even owe a duty to protect individual >citizens. Citizens are on their own -- and the sooner they >know it, the better. > >There are many excellent arguments against "gun >control." Only one argument destroys its logical root. >Master that argument. Get DIAL 911 AND DIE for yourself, >your local talk host, your local NRA leaders, your family, >your local libraries. Read the harrowing, gut-wrenching >stories of crime victims who tragically depended upon police >to help. See how the courts just dismiss the victims' >appeals out of hand. You'll never look at your telephone -- >or your gun rights -- the same way again. > >To Order: > >One copy . . . . 11.95 postage paid >6 copies . . . . 44.95 postage paid >12 copies . . . 79.95 postage paid >Case (58 books) 349.95 postage paid > >These are USA prices. Foreign orders call for pricing. > >On-line ordering: http://www.jpfo.org/dial911anddie.htm > >See the on-line ordering page for an image of the cover. > >The Liberty Crew at JPFO > >---------------------------------------------------------------- >Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership >PO Box 270143 >Hartford, Wisconsin 53027 > >Phone: 414-673-9745 > Fax: 414-673-9746 >http://www.jpfo.org/ > >---------------------------------------------------------------- >To subscribe to JPFO Alerts: send a blank e-mail to: > >jpfo_alerts-subscribe@topica.com > >Then respond to the confirmation message you will get back. > > > >- - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 01:02:08 -0600 From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Fwd: NEA gun poll >X-Sender: gunmoll@POP3.aros.net (Unverified) >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 >Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 23:24:25 -0600 >To: (Recipient list suppressed) >From: Gunmoll >Subject: NEA gun poll > >This is too good to miss! The NEA wants to know "Would stronger gun >control make schools safer?" > >Vote now! http://www.nea.org/neatoday/ > >As of now the vote is 95% no, and 5% yes. I wonder if they really WILL >print the results in the December issue.... > - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 13:19:05 -0600 From: charles hardy Subject: Gun Owners about to get the shaft? From today's DesNews. Looks like Stephens is ready to sell us down the river by standing our CCW law on its head and requiring permitees to ask permission rather than requiring churches to post. What is it going to take convince "leadership" that guns are not a fringe issue they can deal away like chips on a poker table? dc Coalition has guns in its sights Petition targets weapons in schools and churches By Jennifer Toomer-Cook and Bob Bernick Jr. Deseret News staff writers While much work remains to be done, House Speaker Marty Stephens said Tuesday there is a possibility that lawmakers and citizens pushing a gun-control initiative can reach agreement — and the initiative won't be needed after all. Backers of the Utah Safe to Learn — Safe to Worship Coalition unveiled their long-awaited petition drive Monday. The initiative is supported by Utah Children, Utah PTA, State Board of Regents, State Board of Education, the American Academy of Pediatrics, Salt Lake City Police Department and others. "We are here today to make schools safe to learn and churches safe to worship . . . to give voice to Utah citizens who in poll after poll indicate they don't want guns in schools or places of worship," said former Salt Lake Mayor Ted Wilson, who says he backs the initiative as a University of Utah faculty member. Local religious leaders also spoke in favor of the petition drive, calling current laws an "embarrassment." But Tuesday, Stephens, R-Farr West, said he believes the guns-in-churches issue can be solved relatively easily. "I've met with leaders of all denominations," Stephens said, and an informal agreement has been reached whereby the concealed weapons permit holders need permission from church officials to carry a gun on church grounds. That gets around the sticky issue of churches having to post signs saying "No Guns Allowed." Concealed weapons in schools is a harder issue, Stephens agreed. Basically, if wording can be found that will allow permit holders to carry their weapons on to school grounds to attend "approved" school functions and to take and drop off their children, Stephens said that, in concept, is something acceptable to him and perhaps to other members of the Utah House and Senate Republican caucuses. The coalition does support exemptions that would include concealed weapons permit holders bringing students to and from school and permit holders who secure firearms and place them out of sight in a locked, unoccupied vehicle. Coalition leaders say the Legislature's reluctance to deal with the politically charged issue of restricting legally concealed weapons in schools and churches galvanized residents to take the matter in their own hands. The aim, leaders said in a Monday press conference, is to let voters decide whether to ban all firearms, with some exceptions, on campus and in church. Stephens said he wants Utahns to clearly understand that lawmakers banned all guns from schools in 1993, except for legally permitted concealed weapons and guns carried by law enforcement officers. The question now is not whether kids can bring guns to school. They can't. The question is only what to do with legally permitted concealed weapons carried by law-abiding citizens, Stephens said. Doug Bates, an attorney for the State Office of Education, said the intent of the petition's language is to allow concealed weapon permit holders to come on to school grounds for a short period of time to pick up or deliver children and so on. It's not the intent of the petition to allow someone to attend a high school football game, for example, and carry a concealed weapon. It's not the intent to allow school volunteers or teachers to carry their concealed weapons on school grounds all day, Bates added. Stephens said as the coalition has moved from the extreme "to a more reasonable position," chances increase for an agreed-upon solution in the 2000 Legislature. Guns in schools is a hot topic nationwide following a rash of school shooting across the country and at Colorado's Columbine High School, which alone left 15 dead, including the two student gunmen. In Utah, the issue has two sides. Gun rights advocates say schools are sitting ducks without protection offered by lawfully gun-toting citizens. Some have suggested Utah teachers receive firearms training. Elwood Powell, chairman of the Utah Shooting Sports Council, a guns right group, calls the petition drive an agenda to disarm residents and deny constitutional rights. "The only people they are targeting are the most law-abiding citizens who have fulfilled all the requirements for a concealed weapons permit," Powell said. "I hope it has no success . . . from the response I hear from town meetings, citizens themselves don't think much of it." Educators contend guns have no place in class. They fear concealed weapons holders brandishing weapons in a crisis and confusing police or accidentally shooting an innocent bystander or child. Utah lawmakers have discussed the issue since they loosened the state's weapons laws to make it easier to obtain a concealed weapons permit. The debate heightened this past summer when three months of interim committee meetings were dedicated to the issue of guns, but lawmakers could not reach the consensus Gov. Mike Leavitt requested for a special session. Lawmakers said they needed the 45-day session to fully debate the issue. The state's concealed weapons law, which allows a permit holder to carry a gun without restriction, was updated last legislative session to let churches and private property owners decide whether weapons are welcome on their properties. But posting gun ban signs on places of worship is a black eye to the community, said the Right Rev. Carolyn Tanner Irish, Episcopal bishop of Utah. "I think it is embarrassing to the state of Utah, and I look forward to the time we can take those signs down," she said to applause from about 50 supporters gathered at a state Capitol press conference. "(Churches) are sanctuaries where people go in expecting to be . . . unprotected and available to the holy spirit of God." The proposed Utah Safe to Learn — Safe to Worship Act, which would be put to a public vote next year if the petition drive generates enough signatures of support, would ban firearms in churches and their grounds and schools unless administrators say otherwise under school policy or the weapons are carried by law enforcement officers. The act would apply to public and private schools, pre-schools and child-care facilities; applied technology centers and public and private higher education institutions; but not public sidewalks or streets adjacent to such facilities. Violation of the act would be a class A misdemeanor for firearms holders, a class B misdemeanor for those carrying other dangerous materials. The proposed act incorporates provisions from a 1993 state law that bans firearms from public schools. Granite School District has banned all firearms on school property under the 1980s law, which district officials believe prevails over the vague concealed carry law. The Utah Board of Regents also has banned weapons on campuses of the state's nine colleges and universities. While those entities believe their policies are sound, the petition drive is necessary to relieve doubt once and for all, said Bates, state director of school law and legislation. The citizen drive must gather 67,188 signatures in 20 of Utah's 29 counties. Signatures collected must equal at least 10 percent of the county's voter turnout in the 1996 election. Listed among the groups supporting the petition in hand-outs given Monday by coalition leaders is the League of Cities and Towns. But league executive director Ken Bullock said the league does not support the petition. "Our board was never asked to support it, it doesn't and I don't anticipate that it will" support the petition, Bullock said. ================================================================== Charles C. Hardy ________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail you don't need Web access to use -- Or get full, reliable Internet access from Juno Web! Download your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagh. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 15:32:52 -0400 From: "Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises, Inc. and Shire.Net LLC" Subject: Re: Gun Owners about to get the shaft? There is an asnwer to this. Get the GO-Utah and the USSC together and organize a counter petition. Get petition signatures from downtown and everywhere. Name the petition: Keeping Utah Schools and Churches Safe Explain that disarming victims only makes it more likely something will happen. Do it on the streets in a petition. Chad from NH though he goes to SLC on average once a month now - --On Tuesday, September 28, 1999, 1:19 PM -0600 charles hardy wrote: >> From today's DesNews. Looks like Stephens is ready to sell us down the > river by standing our CCW law on its head and requiring permitees to ask > permission rather than requiring churches to post. What is it going to > take convince "leadership" that guns are not a fringe issue they can = deal > away like chips on a poker table? > > dc > > Coalition has guns in its sights > > Petition targets weapons in schools and churches > > By Jennifer Toomer-Cook and Bob Bernick Jr. > Deseret News staff writers > > While much work remains to be done, House Speaker > Marty Stephens said Tuesday there is a possibility that lawmakers and > citizens pushing a gun-control initiative can reach > agreement =97 and the initiative won't be needed after = all. > Backers of the Utah Safe to Learn =97 Safe to = Worship > Coalition unveiled their long-awaited petition drive Monday. > The initiative is supported by Utah Children, Utah > PTA, State Board of Regents, State Board of Education, the American > Academy of Pediatrics, Salt Lake City Police Department and > others. > "We are here today to make schools safe to learn = and > churches safe to worship . . . to give voice to Utah citizens who in = poll > after poll indicate they don't want guns in schools or places > of worship," said former Salt Lake Mayor Ted Wilson, who > says he backs the initiative as a University of Utah faculty member. > Local religious leaders also spoke in favor of the > petition drive, calling current laws an "embarrassment." > But Tuesday, Stephens, R-Farr West, said he = believes > the guns-in-churches issue can be solved relatively easily. > "I've met with leaders of all denominations," > Stephens said, and an informal agreement has bee Pengar Enterprises, Inc. and Shire.Net LLC Web and Macintosh Consulting -- full service web hosting Chad Leigh chad@pengar.com chad@shire.net - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 21:22:00 -0600 From: charles hardy Subject: Mail from the NRA I received a credit card application from the NRA saying they wanted me back as a member and would give me a free one year membership in the NRA if I simply applied for, received, and then used the visa card they were offering. I don't think it will make a bit of difference, but it is on their dime (postage paid return envelope) so this is what I am sending back to them--and all I am sending. Dear NRA Mail Solicitor Please consider this letter as your official notice to remove the above name and address from your mailing list for any and all credit applications. Cease and desist from all future credit solicitations by mail. Furthermore, until such time as the NRA takes an unequivocal stand in defense of my absolute right to peaceably own and carry firearms do not bother with ANY mail solicitations. When the NRA quits appeasing gun grabbers by supporting bad legislation, when they file and win suits to overturn gun control laws based on the 2nd amendment, when they oppose background checks as infringements on my right to own and carry a gun, when they quit supporting the "lesser of two evils" by endorsing back-stabbing Republicans and Democrats over pro-gun Independants or Libertarians, when they start a full court press for "Vermont Carry" in my or any other State of this great Union, please let me know. Until that time, my support, both financial and otherwise, goes to Gun Owners of America (GOA) and Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership (JPFO) and not to the NRA (National Republican Apologists). Thank you, Charles C. Hardy ================================================================== Charles C. Hardy ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 11:44:02 -0600 From: "Will Thompson" Subject: Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 11:44:02 -0600 From the NEA today online. (neato-iddn't nice to know that the NEA done grajyated to words like "neato"? What's next? "Daddy-o"? "keen"? "Neato-burrito"? This is the first time I have ever seen an online poll with more than 80% for anything. Keep up the good work. Wingnuts UNITE! hehe *********************************** Thanks for your vote Would Stronger Gun Control Laws Make Schools Safer? 1% Yes votes 99% No votes Return to NEATO home page. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Oct 99 22:41:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: FW: NEWS - SSAA response to USA Oz Embassy opinion - ----- To: lputah@qsicorp.com Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 11:35:03 -0600 Subject: FW: NEWS - SSAA response to USA Oz Embassy opinion From: "Jim Dexter" - ---------- From: SSAA To: ssaa-news@adelaide.on.net Subject: NEWS - SSAA response to USA Oz Embassy opinion Date: Thu, Sep 30, 1999, 10:47 PM Sandi Logan is counsellor of public affairs for the Embassy of Australia. Washington, D.C. Address is Sandi Logan Washington Bag Locked Bag 40 KINGSTON ACT 2604 - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To: Letter@twtmail.com Subject: Letters to the Editor Date: Thursday, 23 September 1999 11:08 P. Peake Research Section Sporting Shooters Association of Australia Inc. 166 Keymer Street Belmont, Western Australia 6104 Ph/Fax (08) 92776436 23 September 1999 Letters to the Editor The Washington Times 3600 New York Ave. NE Washington, D.C. 20002 Dear Editor Sandi Logan's defence of the Australian government's confiscation of 640,000 firearms and the supposed impact it has had on crime rates in Australia overlooked a number of important points (Washington Times, 9/13/99). First, the available data-sets for considering the efficacy of the scheme are grossly inadequate. The government's 'buyback' program concluded in September 1997. This means at best there is no more than two years worth of information to hand and much of what is available is fragmentary. Assuming that some sort of trend could be discerned however, what has come to light indicates little if any reduction in the overall rate of some crimes and a considerable increase in others. There is a clear upward trend in method substitution, especially where armed robberies and suicides are concerned; blood filled syringes are rapidly becoming the weapon of choice among street criminals, while asphyxiations and poisonings now outstrip firearm related suicides by several fold. Similarly, the number of violent home invasions has continued to increase, as have violent assaults and car thefts. Logan's assessment also overlooked the fact that firearm related accidents were actually lower during the period immediately prior to the government's program. Given the $500,000,000 lifted from taxpayers in order to fund the scheme and the often incestuous relationship between government departments and the anti-gun lobby in Australia, one can understand the authorities willingness to cleave to statistical straws. Looking at the available evidence however, any fair-minded assessment could only conclude that the whole exercise has had no significant impact on crime in Australia. Your sincerely, Paul Peake Research Section Sporting Shooters Association of Australia Inc. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Oct 99 18:09:00 -0700 From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) Subject: FW: ALERT! GUN MANUFACTURERS SELLING 2nd AMENDMENT OUT!! - ----- To: lputah@qsicorp.com Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 10:42:53 -0600 Subject: FW: ALERT! GUN MANUFACTURERS SELLING 2nd AMENDMENT OUT!! From: "Jim Dexter" Note: If Colt, Glock and S&W stop selling handguns to the civilian market, they'll go out of business. The following is offered FWIW - -------------------------------------------------------------------- GUN OWNERS ALLIANCE !!ALERT!! Chris W. Stark - Director P.O. Box 1924 Crosby, Texas 77532-1924 Ph. (281) 787-4111 Fax (281) 328-7505 http://www.GOA-Texas.org email: Director@GOA-Texas.org GUN MANUFACTURERS SELLING 2nd AMENDMENT OUT!! Republication permitted ONLY if this e-mail alert is left intact in its original state. NOTE FROM CHRIS W. STARK, DIRECTOR OF GUN OWNERS ALLIANCE: Be sure to scroll down to the bottom of this alert to receive the contact information for the gun manufacturers listed in this alert (Courtesy of Gun Owners Alliance). Copyright by Neal Knox http://www.nealknox.com Sept. 26 update -- There will be a meeting in Washington tomorrow between three major handgun makers and the attorneys general of New York and Connecticut, and Philadelphia Mayor Ed Rendell. Glock, Colt's and Smith & Wesson, who are attending the meeting, reportedly are interested in negotiating their way out of lawsuits by governmental agencies. Industry sources tell me Glock is in the process of shutting down private sales of handguns, and Colt's is positioned to do so. Another long gun maker who produces a relatively few handguns has already stopped handgun production in antipation of whopping increases in liability insurance unless they get out private sales of handguns. They haven't announced the shutdown of their handgun production, and it could resume if the exhorbitant insurance cost is reduced; but right now that doesn't seem likely. ****UPDATED BULLETIN NEWS FLASH!!**** Oct. 4 Neal Knox Update -- Saturday's New York Times contained details of last Monday's meeting between key gunmakers and most of the cities suing them for providing the less than one-half of one percent of their guns used in crimes. According to the Times, the attendance list was much broader than previously reported. It included Ed Shultz, chief executive of Smith & Wesson, and officials from Sturm, Ruger & Company, Colt's Manufacturing, O. F. Mossberg & Sons, Taurus, Glock and Beretta. Although discussions were preliminary, participants on the cities' side of the table were optimistic because Robert Delfay, president of National Shooting Sports Foundation, "was behind a carefully developed framework that provided common ground for both sides in the talks." The municipalities' demands, which were described as a "wish list" were presented by the City Attorney of Los Angeles. The "most important and far-reaching ... was that the gun companies establish tighter contractual control over their chain of distribution to wholesalers and then retailers, and so curb the supply of handguns to criminals and juveniles through corrupt dealers. Any dealer who was found by Federal tracing to be providing a sizable number of guns used in crimes would lose his supply of products from the manufacturer." Other demands, the Times reported, were that the industry prohibit its dealers from selling handguns at gun shows or on the Internet, stop advertisements claiming that handguns increase safety in homes, and support legislation limiting customers to one handgun purchase a month. Further, the cities wanted the companies to require external locks on all guns and, by 2004, to produce guns that only its owner could fire. The industry reportedly responded that the cities should lobby for an increased budget for BATF to expand its oversight. Notably missing from the meeting were makers of low-cost handguns and lawyers for New Orleans, Newark, Chicago, Detroit and several other cities. # # # # # # # # NOTE FROM CHRIS W. STARK, DIRECTOR OF GUN OWNERS ALLIANCE: Let's apply some tremendous pressure to these traitors. We need to voice our outrage of this "sell-out", by contacting the gun manufacturers that are involved in this sellout listed below: Smith & Wesson 2100 Roosevelt Avenue Springfield, MA 01104 Tel: 1-800-331-0852 Fax: 1-413-747-3317 ceo@smith-wesson.com qa@smith-wesson.com Colt's Manufacturing Company, Inc. P.O. Box 1868 Hartford, CT 06144-1868 Tel: 1-860-236-6311 Fax: 1-860-244-1442 (no e-mail address) O.F. Mossberg & Sons, Inc. 7 Grasso Ave. North Haven, CT 06473 Tel: 1-203-230-5300 Fax: 1-203-230-5420 O.F.Mossberg@worldnet.att.net Service@mossberg.com BERETTA U.S.A. CORP. 17601 Beretta Drive ACCOKEEK MD 20607 Tel: 1-301-283-2191 Fax: 1-301-283-0990 (no e-mail address) Glock, Inc. 6000 Highlands Parkway PO Box 369 Smyrna, GA 30082 Tel: 1-770-432-1202 Fax: 1-770-433-8719 (no e-mail address) Taurus International Firearms 16175 NW 49th Avenue Miami, FL 33014-6314 Tel: 1-305-624-1115 Fax: 1-305-623-7506 (no e-mail address) Sturm Ruger & Co, Inc. 134 Old Post Road Southport, CT 06490 Tel: 1-203-259-4537 Fax: 1-203-259-2167 (no e-mail address) Support the work of Gun Owners Alliance! Go to: http://www.goa-texas.org/members.htm (c) 1999 by Gun Owners Alliance (GOA-Texas). Republication permitted ONLY if this e-mail alert is left intact in its original state. The views herein do not necessarily reflect the views of any other individual or organization, than Gun Owners Alliance (GOA-Texas). We do not officially represent Gun Owners of America. Go to http://www.goa-texas.org/TXsig.htm for more information. SUBSCRIBE TO OUR E-MAIL ALERTS, send an e-mail to: subscribe@GOA-Texas.org ...and in the body of the message, type the word "subscribe". - - ------------------------------ End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #160 ***********************************