From: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com (utah-firearms-digest) To: utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: utah-firearms-digest V2 #190 Reply-To: utah-firearms-digest Sender: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk utah-firearms-digest Wednesday, May 24 2000 Volume 02 : Number 190 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 23:28:44 -0600 From: charles hardy Subject: Janalee on Take2 Sunday Morning Janalee Tobias of Women Against Gun Control taped a session of "Take2 With Rod Decker" tonight after the GOP State Convention. It is scheduled to air tomorrow (Sunday) morning at 10:30 am. Sorry for the late notice but I just found out. The anti-gun woman she debated on the show apparantly made a number of blatantly false statements which Janalee challanged and which Decker said he'd check up on. It may be worthwile for those who see the show to take a moment to call the Take2 number (I trust it will air on the show) and encourage Decker to follow through with getting--AND THEN REPORTING--the real facts of the matters discussed. For any who may be interested, today's Utah State GOP convention was full of interesting twists, turns, and results. If no one beats me to it, I'll try to get out a more complete report in a couple days when I'm better rested. Here are some hightlights, 1CD Hansen was unchallanged. 2CD Cook and Derek Smith face off in a primary. Jeff Wright was quickly eliminated on first ballot. 3CD Cannon easily avoided a primary in his race. Senate Seat: After a number of dirty tricks on the part of SL County in removing certain delegates and replacing them with others, and with Rob Bishop pushing for acceptance of a potentially tainted ballott which the convention delegates simply did not want to take time to re-vote on under more controlled conditions, Hatch avoided a primary with Greg Hawkins by about 55 votes out of some 3500 cast-- ~61.5% to 48.5%. Look for the Juvinille (in)Justice Bill to come charging out of committee with all anti-gun provisions intact any day now. State Attorney General: Mylar and Shurtleff face a primary. State Treasurer and Auditor were uncontested and went to the incumbants. Governor's race: Apparantly being scared by poll numbers, Leavitt YESTERDAY signed an executive order authorizing State lawsuits against the feds over road and wilderness issues. State GOP and Convention Chairman Rob Bishop twice refused to remove Leavitt's name from the ballot for being in direct, open and flagrant violation of GOP State Bylaw # 8 requiring all Statewide and Federal Candidates to file a written disclosure with the party 30 days prior to the convention declaring either their full support for the party platform or listing any areas of disagreement. Best information is that as of yesterday, Leavitt had failed to file this disclosure. The majority of delegates agreed with Rob on this one. As at last year's State Convention, Leavitt was loudly and roundly booed and heckled during his appearances. Glen Davis, who to the best of my knowledge did not have a formal presence at any county conventions and mailed out only a single 4 page platform, handily forced a primary once the other challangers were eliminated during multiple ballots. Final results were roughly 53% Leavitt, 47% Davis. In what may prove to be a stroke of genius on somebody's part, Davis selected Greg Hawkins to be his Lt. Gov running mate. Leavitt and Bishop were clearly unhappy, though Leavitt did promise to engage in debates. I will be quite happy if SLCo and State GOP officials end up rueing the day they engaged in the dirty trick to eliminate Hawkins from the Senate primary. Thank you to those of you who participated and assisted and help make some of these victories possible. As always with these things, it was a long day and the numbers dimished for the final round of votes. If the info I received on vote totals during the day is at all accurate, it would appear that Conservative delegates left in nearly equal numbers as the NEA types. I sincerely hope that in the future, conservatives will be dedicated not only to attending their caucas meetings with friends and getting elected delegates, but will also make whatever schedule adjustments are needed to stay at convention until final votes are cast and announced AND will be willing to support open and proper debate and demand that the rules be upheld throughout the day. Far too many delegates allow every argument for "expediancy" from the chair to cut off debate, adopt rules that limit our ability to be heard, or to refuse taking time for a fair and unbiased re-vote when needed. We had some small successes today. But we've got a long way to go and we need every pro-gun/conservative person we can find to help us. Delegates have got to show up to meetings committed to taking the time to do things right even if it does mean being there "until Tuesday." They have got to be willing to challange and overrule the chair when he is out of line. Like minded non-delegates need to show up to assist with leafletting, manning booths, etc. I believe some of the success we had today was due to the help of a few delegates and non-delegates alike who got "Delegate Guides" "UTGOA Candidate Ratings" "Hatch's Gun Record" and "Leavitt's Gun Record" flyers into the hands of the majority of delegates. It was amazing the difference 15 or so organized people made at this convention vs 5 or 6 at previous conventions I've attended. I see no reason why that number isn't closer to 150 organized people at next year's organizing convention. Please, plan now to attend the ENTIRE organizing convention next year. Honestly, I plan to spend from 6:00 am until past midnight at these conventions. If we get out before that (and we do), I consider it "found time." Start thinking of good, credible, conservatives to run for party office. If you are thinking of running for some office, please make sure you have some credetials of service to the party or her candidates. If you don't have any yet, get some by actively working on a campaign or by finding a volunteer position within the party. Also. if you are on the county or State Central Committee, please make sure to attend all the meetings this next year. There are clearly a number of areas that need some housecleaning and Conservatives will need your support and your vote. Thank you, I'll now step off my soapbox and go to bed. - ---------------- Charles Hardy ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 10:42:25 -0600 From: charles hardy Subject: Fw: MMM Gun Poll - ---------------- Charles Hardy - --------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Alan Hepner Check this out .... we were ahead yesterday, now we seem to be losing badly. Everyone needs to vote and fix this !! http://www.sltrib.com/ ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 22:40:36 -0600 From: charles hardy Subject: Post convention polling My wife, Jennifer, was just contacted by a poll this evening which, upon inquiry, she was told was being funded by "Chris Hill" on behalf of Jeff Wright to learn why Jeff showed so poorly. Given the question that were asked, however, we believe the information is also going to Leavitt/Hatch/et al. I won't attempt to suggest what the "correct" or "best" answers might be to the questions, but if you do happen to be contacted, I would suggest that this might be one time to consider parting with a little more info than you normally do so as to send a loud strong message that rank and file, moderate Republicans are unhappy about guns, taxes, land issues, and health care/insurance. ... Or...maybe they already know that and it is still wise to keep ones cards close to the chest, I don't know. Anyway the questions, in order as Jennifer recalled them: Did you attend the convention as a delegate? First time as a delegate? Voted for Hatch? Voted for Leavitt? (when no) Was that vote "FOR" another candidate or was it "AGAINST" Leavitt? (when for someone else on first ballot, but against Leavitt on second ballot) Why against Leavitt? What issues? How did you vote in the 2nd CD? (when for someone other than Wright) Why did you not vote for Wright? - ---------------- Charles Hardy ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 14:34:43 -0600 From: charles hardy Subject: Counter Million Mom March I'm informed and requested to pass along that there will be a protest or counter march to the Million Mom March being held in SLC on Mothers' Day. Meet at 2:30 pm at the SL city/county building (2100 S State). For more details call "Bob" at 801-277-0085. The forward below is from Nancy and is an interesting idea for those attending the countermarch. - ---------------- Charles Hardy - --------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Nancy" To: Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 09:58:22 -0400 Subject: Rapists for Gun Control Message-ID: <002901bfb82c$54877ae0$2e4f56d1@nancyher> Thank You for taking the time to turn out in support of “sensible gun laws” Please print and distribute to as many people as possible. Leave them in places where they will be seen. Post them anywhere. We have only one week to issue a reality check to the brain dead American public. One week to piss off as many mothers as possible. This document will do it. Guaranteed. The Million Mothers want to appeal to emotion, so should we. Fire up your printer and keep the copies going out. ====== Thank You for taking the time to turn out in support of “sensible gun laws” We here at Rapists for Gun Control Fully support the effort of the Million Misinformed Mothers to Disarm the naive American Public and make the night safer for our members. Thousands of our members are legally killed each year with firearms by women exercising their constitutional right to self protection. We here at Rapists for Gun Control welcome your help in ending this tragedy. Paid for in part with contributions from Muggers for Gun Control ================================================================== Charles C. Hardy Utah Email Coordinator--Women Against Gun Control ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 12:19:17 -0600 From: charles hardy Subject: Who's really behind the Million "Mom" March A little info about the organizers of the Million "Mom" March: ================================================================== Charles C. Hardy Utah Email Coordinator--Women Against Gun Control “Million Mom March”, mothers maternal instinct? Bull----! Read this article from the Washington Post to uncover people truly behind it. You will NOT be surprised! It exposes the so-called mother (Ms. Donna Dees- Thomases) who was the brainchild of the “Million Mom March” to register all hand guns and more. Ms. Donna Dees- Thomases who was supposed to be just a New Jersey mother is also: · A part time publicist for CBS · Was Dan Rather’s publicist · Is the sister-in-law of Susan Thomases, who just happens to be Hillary Clinton's best friend and closest political adviser http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/ed-column-2000510173326.htm ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 16:05:05 -0600 From: charles hardy Subject: Letter in today's DesNews needs response This letter appeared in today's (Friday, May 12) opinion section of the Deseret News . I believe a response or 100 would be in order. Concealed guns didn't help Where were the "pistol-packin' mamas" when we needed them Thursday night? The shooting spree at Chevys was tragic, but why didn't somebody pull out his or her concealed weapon to stop the carnage? Did concealed weapons make a difference? I don't think so. Could you imagine if several people in Chevys had pulled out weapons and opened fire on the gunman? How many more deaths would have occurred? Concealed weapons don't count for a hill of beans when reality kicks in. Random acts of violence will still occur, and concealed weapons will only compound the problem or make no difference at all — as was the case in Sandy/Midvale. Jeff Olsen West Valley City ================================================================== Charles C. Hardy Utah Email Coordinator--Women Against Gun Control ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 17:10:16 -0600 From: "Karl Pearson" Subject: Hitler on Guns "1935 will go down in History! For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient and the world will follow our lead to the future!" --Adolf Hitler "History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subjected peoples to carry arms have prepared their own fall." --Adolf Hitler, Edict of 18 March 1939 We visited my in-laws for Mother's day yesterday. My father was born in Germany and knows history. He included in our discussions yesterday some interesting things about Hitler's beginnings. He began to require gun owners to lock their firearms in a bunker when they were not being used "for greater security from thieves". One day, the locks had been changed and no one had access to their own firearms. Shortly thereafter, Jews began to die. You know that story, and if you are wise, have considered the fact that it couldn't have happened if Hitler hadn't first disarmed his citizenry? You should know that the Million Moron March on Washington D.C. (sorry I've given away my bias) was organized by a woman who is a close friend and confidant of Hillary Clinton. Also, remember this quote from May, 1991: "Our task of creating a socialist America can only succeed when those who would resist us have been totally disarmed." --Sarah Brady, president of Gun Control, Inc. and wife of James Brady after which the Brady Gun Control Bill was named Ms. Brady has also said that people should not be allowed to own guns for self-defense. Yet in debates, employees of Gun Control, Inc. steadfastly deny that the organization believes in the policies articulated by its leaders. In short, they are lying about what they want to accomplish. This is understandable, to be sure; but not honorable, or right for the country. Those who fail to learn history are destined to repeat it. Karl Pearson karlp@colubs.com http://www.xmission.com/~ourfam - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 15:05:25 -0600 From: charles hardy Subject: WAGC press conference to counter petition drive Janalee Tobias and Women Against Gun Control have called a press conference for this Saturday, May 20, at 9:30 am at the Salt Lake Main Library, 209 E 500 S. GOP AG Candidate Frank Mylar is slated to attend. The press conference will denounce efforts to make targets of children and church goers by outlawing legally carried weapons in schools and churches. Jan Graham will also be denounced for misuse of taxpayer funds in carrying on lobbying efforts. If you call the Attorney General's Public Information Services phone at 801-366-0260 (as listed on the blue "government" page 42 of your USWest SLC phone book) and ask for Ms. Graham's voice mail, you will be greeted by Ms. Graham welcoming you to the "home of the beagle forum..the voice of normal people." This press conference should be a good kickoff to US-DIN's leafleting and information efforts at public libraries that same day to counter the petition drive by the gun grabbers. Please attend if possible. ================================================================== Charles C. Hardy Utah Email Coordinator--Women Against Gun Control - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 14:50:38 -0600 From: charles hardy Subject: Bill Nash can't do simple math? It's no wonder the freedom hating, self-wetting, cry-baby, gun grabbers can't grasp the fact that disarming victims (aka gun control) has, does, and will kill far more people than it ever saves. They can't even count to 25 without error. How could they ever comprehend numbers like 2.5 million (times a year law abiding citizens twart crime by using or threating to use a gun in self defense). From today's SLTrib front page story on the petition drive to ban legally carried guns from schools and churches comes this quote from Bill Nash: "My experience is if you ask 25 people, 20 will sign it, five will say no and one will give you an argument." 20 + 5 +1 = 26 where I come from. But for Mr. Nash, it somehow adds to only 25. :) ================================================================== Charles C. Hardy Utah Email Coordinator--Women Against Gun Control ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 15:34:46 -0600 From: charles hardy Subject: Children need to feel safe The following is forwarded as food for thought. A great comeback to the gun grabbers "feel safe" argument. ================================================================== Charles C. Hardy Utah Email Coordinator--Women Against Gun Control - ---forwarded message--- In the church/school gun ban initiative summary they say: "Utah students have a right to feel safe in their schools. We, the citizens of Utah, are determined to provide a safe and secure learning environment, free from the threat of gun violence. Schools should be safe places of learning........" In the third grade one of my daughters was asked to take a survey at the beginning of the school year. One of the questions was: "I feel safe when_____" Her answer: "I feel safe when dad has a gun". On a dark night at a high mountain camp I was sitting around a camp fire with a bunch of children. I asked them "Are you afraid?" Their answer "no!" I asked, "why not!" Their answer "you have a gun." Children feel safe when they know a responsible adult has the means and ability to protect them! And that's the truth. Kirk Love ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 15:58:46 -0600 From: charles hardy Subject: Fw: Petition Drive Looks like one of my emails ended up in Jan's hands. Her response is below and was originally sent to the same mail lists as I posted my email to. Since those are all closed lists, her response never made it through. In the interest of giving everyone a fair hearing, and allowing you to draw your own conclusions and respond if desired, I'm forwarding her message, with the header and her return email address, intact. ================================================================== Charles C. Hardy Utah Email Coordinator--Women Against Gun Control - --------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Jan Graham" To: wagc-ut@groups.com, lputah@qsicorp.com, utah-firearms@xmission.com, gopconservatives@egroups.com, utbagpiper@juno.com Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 15:35:07 MDT Subject: Petition Drive Message-ID: <20000519213507.62769.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from mx2.boston.juno.com (mx2.boston.juno.com [63.211.172.34]) by m10.boston.juno.com with SMTP id AAA6UMN6RAMWQZPJ for (sender ); Fri, 19 May 2000 17:35:11 -0400 (EST) Received: from mx2.jersey.juno.com (mx2.jersey.juno.com [209.67.33.111]) by mx2.boston.juno.com with SMTP id AAA6UMN6RAJD92PS for (sender ); Fri, 19 May 2000 17:35:11 -0400 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (f51.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.51]) by mx2.jersey.juno.com with SMTP id AAA6UMN6PAMXCWEJ for (sender ); Fri, 19 May 2000 17:35:09 -0400 (EST) Received: (qmail 62770 invoked by uid 0); 19 May 2000 21:35:07 -0000 Received: from 161.119.235.21 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 19 May 2000 14:35:07 PDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Return-Path: X-Originating-IP: [161.119.235.21] I wanted to respond to an email you may have recently received regarding my efforts to assist the Safe to Learn-Safe to Worship Coalition. I specifically want to respond to accusations that I have used taxpayer money to support this effort. Over the past several days, many people have called the Attorney General's Public Information Line to inquire about the gun petition drive or the Utah Beagle Forum. Those questions must be handled by me, not by an AG employee, so employees have been instructed to forward those calls to my personal voice mailbox. My personal voice mailbox is maintained outside of the Attorney General's Office and is paid for by me personally. I established the mailbox for the very purpose of providing a way for citizens to contact me on political matters so as not to use the resources of the Attorney General's Office. Were you to call the Public Information Line to talk to me regarding a state matter, someone within the office would be happy to assist you, or if appropriate, would forward you to my office voice mailbox, which is maintained within the Capitol. At no time during the petition drive have I ever given out the number of the AG Public Information Line (366-0260). People call that number because it is the number listed in the phone book for the Attorney General's Office. The only number I have ever given, both in newspaper ads (also paid for by me) and in interviews, has been to the voice mailbox I personally pay for and maintain (468-1700). Those who mistakenly call the office instead of the number provided are told that because it is not an office matter, their calls must be forwarded to the appropriate number. As you know, the issue of guns in schools and churches is one of deep importance to me, but I have not and would not ever misuse government resources as has been alleged. I have a great respect for the Attorney General's Office and I believe I have been vigilant in protecting its integrity and in acting responsibly as its leader. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 10:28:45 -0600 From: "Will Thompson" Subject: RE: Hitler on Guns I've been seeing this quotation spreading around again, and thought I'd forward another viewpoint to these maillists. Take it with the usual grain of salt...(not being a Hitler scholar, I have no idea which side is correct, although the quotations *seem* a little too perfect to be true.) Will http://www.saf.org/BogusQuotesAntiGunners.html http://rkba.org/research/rkba.faq http://www.guntruths.com/Resource/false_quotations_and_other_misin.htm > -----Original Message----- > Subject: Hitler on Guns > > > "1935 will go down in History! For the first time, a civilized nation = has > full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police > more efficient > and the world will follow our lead to the future!" > --Adolf Hitler > From the Second Amendment Foundation: BOGUS, FAKE & QUESTIONABLE QUOTES FALSELY ATTRIBUTED TO THE ANTI-GUNNERS Gun grabbers twist facts, quote out of context, misuse statistics and generally misrepresent their real agenda at every turn. And, unfortunately, these deceitful tactics have led to th= e passage of some gun control measures. Their successes through dishonesty have apparently turned some well-intentioned pro-gun rights people into "creative writers." But no matter how loathsome our enemies become, that is still no excuse f= or falsely attributing quotes to them. In fact, citing a proven false quote only discredits the rest of th= e message, even if the person may only be unintentionally and unknowingly repeating the made-up quote. This can = be very damaging to our cause in debates, letters to the editor, and interviews. Furthermore, resorting to their methods only lowers us to their level. While it is impossible to prove that these are phony quotes, no historian has been able to verify the original citation required for authenticity. It is better to be safe than sorry. O= ne anti-gun judge discredited a letter writer by pointing out the fake quote used in that letter to the editor. The judge writes, "(An oft-cited Hitler "quote" about gun registration has been proved to be a hoax, though that has not stopped many from repeating it.)" CLICK HERE to view the entire Judge's column, complete with many inaccuracies of his own. Please do the pro-gun cause a favor =96 If you locate any websites innoce= ntly citing any of the following quotes, please forward the URL of this page to that page=92s webmaster. Furthermore, if you can locate proof that one of these quotes is in fact valid, please forward the information HERE! Adolf Hitler Perhaps the most infamous bogus quote is attributed to Adolf Hitler. Usually, the questionable passage reads as follows: 1935 will go down in History! For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient and the world will follo= w our lead to the future! Note: This passage sometimes features different punctuation and slight wording changes including a beginning of, =91For the first time in history, a....=92 Various citation= s include: Adolf Hitler, April 15, 1935, in address to the Reichstag; Adolf Hitler 1935 'Berlin Daily' (Loose English Translation) April 15th, 1935 Page 3 Article 2 by Einleitung Von Eberhard Beckmann -"Abschied vom Hessenland!". "Adolf" is sometimes misspelled as =91Adolph=92 on the Internet. While the above 'quote' makes a nice T-shirt, there are numerous problems with this alleged statement. (1) It violates the rule of not beginning a sentence with a number. (2) It is= n=92t phrased in Hitler=92s style. (3) Major changes to the German gun laws occurred in 1928 and 1931 (under the Weima= r Republic) and in 1938 (under the Nazi=92s). No significant changes happened in the gun registra= tion laws in 1935. Furthermore, the changes in 1928 and 1931 were designed to disarm the Nazis and Communists and therefore it is doubtful that Hitler would trumpet the success of any law aimed at his goon squads. However, if anyone finds the proper historical context from which this questionable quote was pulled from, and confirms it with their own eyes, please forward the details and your contact information HERE! Until then, please click here for some proven Nazi Quotes. (Coming soon) SARAH BRADY Sarah Brady gets bashed by pro-gun rights people for repeatedly changing = her stories, downplaying her real agenda, and outright lying. All of these flaws are fair game, but claimin= g she said something didn=92t will not help our cause, and could actually hurt our efforts. The following quote was probably aimed at reaching veterans and other Americans concerned about our great country=92s move toward either Communism and Socialism. The falseho= od reads: Our task of creating a socialist America can only succeed when those who would resist us have been totally disarmed. This phony quote is often cited as a statement from Sarah Brady, Chairman= , HCI, to Howard Metzenbaum, The National Educator, January, 1994, Page 3. "Sarah" and "Metzenbaum" ar= e sometimes misspelled as "Sara" and "Metzanbaum" on the Internet. There are several problems with this quote, including the fact that the common citation does not check out. In addition, Sarah Brady would usually be considered a conservative Republican on most politic issues besides firearms, and therefore not likely to embrace much more of the Socialist agenda than gun control. JANET RENO Janet Reno is no friend to gun owners, and certainly earned her place in history for Ruby Ridge and Waco disasters, but she did not say the following: The most effective means of fighting crime in the United States is to out= law the possession of any type of firearm by the civilian populace. This non-statement, is falsely attributed to Janet Reno, then-state attor= ney for Dade County, in an alleged speech to Ft. Lauderdale, Florida B'nai B'rith gathering. The date that t= his is to have supposedly occurred is listed as 1984, 1991 and even 1995 (as Attorney General). Blame Janet Ren= o for the atrocities that are real, not make-believe statements. CONCLUSION The bottom line is that it is wise to play it safe! Beat up the gun grabb= ers for the numerous things that they have done and said. Their real actions and statements are bad enough with= out any embellishment being necessary. Stay honest to keep our credibility high and theirs low. If you have information to the contrary, please send the details and your contact information HERE! The information provided on these pages are from a variety of sources. Fo= r more information about questionable quotations, please visit the GunCite.com website. GunCite.co= m has an excellent analysis of some of these infamous non-statements HERE. In addition, please check out Firing Back by Clayton Cramer, part of the SAF bookshelf. Copyright =A9 1999 Second Amendment Foundation, All Rights Reserved. Second Amendment Foundation James Madison Building 12500 N.E. Tenth Place Bellevue, WA 98005 Voice: 425-454-7012 Toll Free: 800-426-4302 FAX: 425-451-3959 email: www@saf.org - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 13:52:51 -0600 From: charles hardy Subject: Campaign of Intimidation? This piece of drivel is from today's DesNews editorial page. Normally the strawman arguments and sidestepping of the saliant points (like why should a person's right to effectively defend themselves be limited by geography, or what evidence is there to suggest Utah's 30,000 CCW permitees are not already compentan) would have been bad enough. But the closing paragraph, accusing self-defense supporters of waging a "campaign of intimidation" is downright slanderous, IMO. I believe that especially those who turned out to help educate the masses need to now take a few moments to write and submit a letter to the editor. In addittion to debunking any notion of which side actually is more likely to get rude and nasty, it might also be useful to relay any observations about whether those signing the petition even knew what they were signing. After all, the DesNews thinks we should put this on the ballot so Utahns can "express their feelings" at the ballot box. From what I've heard, that is all they'll be expressing as the vast majority of them lack sufficient information to have any thoughts on the matter. Gun issue isn't 'winner-take-all' Deseret News editorial An intruder turned life upside down for a 51-year-old Salt Lake man this past weekend. A 20-something man, he smashed through a window and entered the Salt Lake residence about 2:40 a.m. Sunday, and the 51-year-old who lives there shot him dead. Although the case has not yet been reviewed by prosecutors, police assert it rises to the level of justifiable homicide. Given what we know at this point, it appears the homeowner was within his rights to shoot at the intruder. He did so under direct threat to him and his wife. We take no issue with the shooter's actions, nor with his right to bear arms. Unfortunately, this is the kind of case gun-rights advocates are likely to latch onto. No one should be surprised if they single out this homeowner as a poster boy du jour in the lobbying campaign against the "Safe to Learn, Safe to Worship" citizen initiative. But to do so would be wrong, because this incident is completely unrelated to the aims of the citizen initiative. Private gun ownership is not an issue here. The petition does not concern itself with the debate over whether the Second Amendment permits gun ownership or whether it refers only to arming a state militia. Nor do we. Instead, our concern is twofold: that people who own guns acknowledge and accept the responsibilities that come with that right and that the gun debate not degenerate into a winner-takes-all dialogue. Common-sense answers can be found on middle ground if both sides would only cease to view guns as a black-and-white issue. Guns aren't going away. They have been a part of the American landscape from the beginning. Americans need to become educated about them and learn to live with and respect them. Because guns, and private gun ownership, aren't going away — despite the National Rifle Association's incessant harping that gun rights are under grave threat — gun-rights advocates should not summarily dismiss every proposed rule or law on principle. They should not make the quantum leap in logic that says banning concealed weapons from schools and churches is a slippery slope to gun confiscation by government soldiers. Such scare tactics discredit the gun-rights lobby and stand in the way of common-sense gun legislation, such as that which would require concealed weapons permit-holders, who now number 30,000 in Utah, to demonstrate firearms competency before they are granted a permit. The citizen initiative gives Utahns an opportunity to speak on the issue of concealed weapons, whether the Legislature went too far in liberalizing the law in 1995. Whether Utahns back the initiative or not, they should sign petitions to put it to a vote of the people, and those opposed to the initiative should stop their campaign of intimidation. With a May 30 deadline looming, Utahns need to act now so they can express their feelings at the ballot box in November. ================================================================== Charles C. Hardy Utah Email Coordinator--Women Against Gun Control - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 14:49:30 -0700 From: James L. Mayhugh Subject: CCW Forums Website I've just launched the CCW Forums website to address the growing number of Concealed Handgun Permit Holders throughout the country. This forum is meant to be a clearinghouse of information and ideas. I am also interested in getting CCW and Firearms Instructors together to share views and opinions in a private forum. If this is of interest to you, please stop by http://www.ccwforums.com Regards, James L. Mayhugh NRA Life Member GOA Life Member LEAA Life Member NSRPA Life Member JPFO Member =46ront Sight Firearms Training Institute Instructor NRA Certified Firearms Instructor NRA Certified Range Safety Officer NRA Recruiter Arizona Licensed Firearms Instructor North Dakota Licensed Firearms Instructor Utah Licensed Firearms Instructor E-Mail: jimmayhugh@lvcablemodem.com Web Sites: http://www.gmj.com http://www.ccwforums.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 14:33:14 -0600 From: Scott Bergeson Subject: FW: Article I, Section 10 - ----- Subject: Article I, Section 10 Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 10:55:43 -0500 From: Andy Barniskis To: adbco@netaxs.com Notable friends: I'm sending this to a handful of people in the gun rights movement whose opinions I respect, to obtain their judgment of one of my ideas/opinions. A couple years ago while reading the main body of the constitution, it struck me that Article I, Section 10 prohibits the states from "maintaining troops" without the express consent of congress. It seems to me that regarding the question of "the meaning of the Second Amendment," that shoots holes in the now- popular argument that the Second Amendment was intended to grant states the blanket right to maintain National Guard-like organized forces. And yet, I don't recall the issue of Article I, Section 10 ever being raised, and when I have raised it, even in the gun rights community, I get the sense that no one finds it a very compelling argument. By contrast I, possibly as a habitual contrarion, don't find the widely popular "quote the founders" (e.g., George Mason, "Who are the militia?) arguments terribly compelling -- VALID, just not very compelling. The only argument I thought of, and since encountered, against my Article I, Section 10, argument, is that possibly the later Second Amendment could be construed as overriding it. Here I think the "quotes of the Founders" definitely does come into play, as I'm sure if there had been ONE example of the Bill of Rights REVERSING a basic premise of the constitution, or the consensus regarding its intent, the Anti-Federalists, who opposed ratification, would have been all over it saying, "See? Your constitution isn't even ratified yet and ALREADY you're changing it. . ." I have found no evidence at all of such a debate, which inclines me to believe that EVERYONE, including the Federalists and Anti-Federalists, agreed that the intent of the constitution, including, or especially, the constitution with the Bill of Rights included, was to prohibit standing armies at any level of government, without the consent of congress. But my basic questions are, o Has this argument been done, and I'm just not aware of it? o If it has been done, has it been found wanting in the debate? o If it is valid, or reasonably so, what is there about it that no one but me seems to find it very interesting? I'll admit I have read and FORGOTTEN more than I now know about these historical arguments, so if someone can point me toward some writing on the subject -- even if it is embarrassing, "You should have remembered THAT" sort of stuff, I'd appreciate it. - --Andy Barniskis - - ------------------------------ End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #190 ***********************************