From: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com (utah-firearms-digest) To: utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: utah-firearms-digest V2 #233 Reply-To: utah-firearms-digest Sender: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk utah-firearms-digest Thursday, December 26 2002 Volume 02 : Number 233 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 11:51:50 -0700 From: Scott Bergeson Subject: Better documentation of the FBI gun owner harassment during the sniper investigation http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=\Culture\archive\200211\CUL20021105a.html FBI Agents 'Miffed' that Gun Owner Contacted Media By Jeff Johnson CNSNews.com Congressional Bureau Chief November 05, 2002 Capitol Hill (CNSNews.com) - Prior to the capture of "Beltway Sniper" suspects John Allen Muhammad and John Lee Malvo, an unconfirmed number of Maryland gun owners received surprise visits from the FBI as part of the investigation. One such gun owner had a surprise of his own for the agents when they arrived at his home. Jeff Brown of Gaithersburg, Md., was "a little nervous" when he heard the voicemail message from an FBI agent on the sniper task force who wanted to "visit" Brown at his home to check a .223 caliber semi-automatic rifle Brown purchased in 1993. Adding to that apprehension was the fact that Brown owns and drives a full-sized white panel van, the type of vehicle investigators believed the sniper was driving. "I expected, actually, to be pulled over and spread-eagle on the street at some point", Brown told CNSNews.com Monday. "When he called, I knew their database had had a double hit. A white van and a .223 rifle? I knew they were coming." In a subsequent telephone conversation, Metzger reportedly told Brown that agents merely wanted to verify the serial number of the rifle and confirm that it was, in fact, still physically in Brown's possession. The two scheduled an appointment to accomplish those goals. But Brown later learned that the agents had tried at least once to make an unannounced visit, and only called because they were unable to catch him at home. "Once I told some of my friends in the pro-gun community what was happening, they began to relate some stories to me about guys having their guns confiscated, for so-called 'ballistic fingerprinting', and not getting their guns back", Brown explained. "I became alarmed." Larry Pratt, executive director of Gun Owners of America, said the attitude of the federal agents comes as a result of "years of accepting gun control as somehow useful for solving crimes." "The [Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms] went to the stores and got the lists of gun owners that had something that could fire a .223. But, it didn't solve the crime", Pratt noted. "The only reason we find that gun registration is 'useful' is for confiscation." FBI Agents 'Were Not Happy' Brown's apprehension prompted him to contact an attorney, who instructed him on preparing for the visit. So, when FBI Special Agent Greg Metzger and his partner arrived at Brown's home for their scheduled meeting, they were greeted by Brown and his wife, Mary, along with reporters and photographers from various media outlets. As Brown described the situation, the agents were "a little bit miffed." "They were not happy", he observed. "They just were not interested in being around any cameras." The agents asked Brown to step outside the home, away from the television crew, to talk. "Can we, uh ... come here", one of the agents said to Brown. Obliging, Brown stepped away from the door to speak with the agents, but still within view of the camera. Brown began recapping the agreement he had made with Special Agent Metzger. But when one of the agents realized Brown was wearing a wireless microphone, he stopped the conversation short. "Do you have a microphone on?" the agent asked as he reached toward the microphone clipped to Brown's shirt. Brown backed away and continued talking, but the agent interrupted him again. "Can you do me a favor?" the agent asked. "Can you take the apparatus off that you have on? I'd like to speak to you privately." Brown complied, but only after summoning his wife to serve as a witness to the conversation with the agents. Out of the camera's view, and believing they could not be heard, the agents challenged Brown about the presence of the media. "They were belligerent, at that point, with me. They weren't threatening me or pushing me around or touching me or anything like that, but their mannerisms and attitude quickly became offended and belligerent", Brown recalled. "I was thinking to myself, 'See, this is what I was afraid would happen if you guys came into my house, especially if I was alone.'" [sic] 'Don't You Know People Are Dying?' Parts of the conversation picked up by the camera's long-range microphone confirm Brown's account of what happened next. "Why didn't you give us a chance to do what we said we were going to do instead of ambushing us with the media? Why didn't you trust us?" one agent asked. Brown said it was not so much the words the agents used, as their attitude and body language that made him uncomfortable. "There was some lecturing about it", he said recalling one comment that did unnerve him. "One thing they said was, 'Don't you know people are dying and we're just trying to do our job?'" Brown recalled, "Of course, the inference was that I didn't care that there were people dying and I was trying to interfere with them doing their job." During that conversation, the agents reportedly admitted that they had seized other rifles, allegedly with permission, to compare them to the ballistic evidence gathered from the crime scenes. "They said, from some people, they do 'request' to take the gun with them and do 'ballistic fingerprinting', as they call it", Brown recalled. "I just did not want to have my gun disappear." Pratt believes the agents "developed an attitude", because Brown challenged their attempts to violate his constitutional rights. "The FBI is trying to put this guy on a guilt trip because he's 'not cooperating' with the system but it's a totally useless system", Pratt argued. "They just assume that gun owners [are] all a bunch of suspects just for being gun owners and they should behave accordingly." 'They Were Doing It On Purpose' At the request of Special Agent Metzger, Brown instructed the media to stay outside his home, where they could see what was happening through a plate glass window. Brown had the unloaded weapon displayed in plain sight for the inspection. The agents followed Brown and his wife inside and confirmed the serial number on the rifle as they had said they wanted to do. But that was not the end of the encounter. "After they checked, they started [questioning Brown again], and that's when my wife stepped in and told them to leave", Brown said, noting that his wife formerly worked in law enforcement. Mary Brown believed the agents were attempting to agitate her husband, hoping he would say or do something to justify their confiscation of his rifle. "I could tell that they were doing it on purpose and I didn't like what they were doing to you", she told her husband. "So, I decided to just jump right in." The agents left the couple's property, as they were ordered to do. Jeff Brown does not believe the agents' reaction to the presence of the media, or their "brow-beating" tactics were justified. "I'm not here to make them feel happy. I have to make sure my rights are not violated. I wanted to help, but this is not Nazi Germany", he explained. "I looked [Metzger] right in the eye and said ... 'I don't care whether you're upset about being ambushed by the media. I felt I needed some witnesses here with me.'" Brown, a member of the National Rifle Association and former candidate for public office in Maryland, was also upset by what he perceived as a lack of honesty on the part of the FBI. "[Metzger] wasn't upfront with me, and I didn't have any guilty feelings about [contacting the media]", Brown said. "They weren't truthful with me. They didn't tell me all the truth. They only told me the part they wanted [me] to hear." A Message to Gun Owners? Debbie Weierman, a spokeswoman for the FBI, said the bureau would not respond to any questions about the encounter, because the probe into the multiple murders was still in progress. "We're not going to be able to get into any kind of a dialogue with you regarding any aspect of our investigation", she said. Pratt believes the response of the agents to the presence of the media shows that their main focus was not on finding the "Beltway Sniper", but rather on sending a message to gun owners. "They know it's not about crime control because, if they were really interested in finding the perpetrator they would have kept moving. Obviously this guy wasn't the guy", Pratt concluded. "What it's really all about is showing that the feds are in control in a very totalitarian sense of the word." - --- - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 20:09:10 -0700 From: charles hardy Subject: If UofU wins gun lawsuit, USU may follow suit with campus gun ban The following is from the latest USU online newspaper. While USU does not yet have a campus wide gun ban, it does enforce an illegal ban on adult students possessing legal weapons in their place of residence if that place of residence happens to be a university dorm room. Charles ================================== USU ban on guns possible, pending U of U suit By Roy Burton Media Credit: Photo illustration by John Zsiray After a recent rampage at the University of Arizona, where a nursing student shot three professors before killing himself, the debate on whether universities should be allowed to ban guns has become a national issue. In Utah, guns have been a hot topic for much longer. The University of Utah is at the center of the debate, having filed a lawsuit against Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff to defend its right to ban guns on campus. Utah is the only state that does not ban guns at state institutions, according to a Nov. 3 article in the Deseret News. Utah State University does not prohibit students or faculty from carrying guns on campus legally, but students who want to live in dorms must agree to a no-gun clause in their contracts. Craig Simper, legal counsel for the university, said while USU does not restrict people with concealed weapons permits from carrying guns on campus, it does support the University of Utah's lawsuit. He said the issue is not about guns, but about the university's right to provide academic freedom to its faculty and students. The First Amendment guarantees the right of universities to make rules and regulations regarding their campuses, Simper said. "We believe that it's the university's constitutional right of academic freedom," he said. Simper said he has spoken extensively with President Kermit L. Hall on the matter. Hall fully supports the University of Utah's policy to ban guns, he said. USU filed a brief in the lawsuit, supporting the U of U's position. If the judge rules in favor of the University of Utah, Simper said, there will be discussion about implementing a similar policy for the Aggies. While he doesn't know what results of the discussion would be, he said "it's quite possible" a no-gun rule would be put in place. Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff said in the Deseret News article he is simply trying to enforce state law, which says only the Legislature has authority to enact gun-control legislation. State institutions like the University of Utah do not have such authority, he said. U of U law students argued recently in letters to the editor of the Utah Daily Chronicle, the student newspaper, that banning guns did not deter incidents like the shootings at the University of Arizona. David Sundwall wrote, "As economist John Lott argued here at our law school a few weeks ago, allowing law-abiding citizens to arm and defend themselves is the best way to decrease crime. Just the mere prospect that someone else in that classroom might have been armed could have been enough to deter the killer from even attempting to kill or at least stop him from further killings." Arnold Astorga, another law student wrote, "If criminals are going to carry guns in defiance of the law and school policy, then the only ones affected are law-abiding students who are denied their most effective means of self defense." In order to receive a concealed weapons permit, a person must pay a $59 fee, submit two letters of reference, have fingerprints taken, undergo a background check, send two photos and a copy of a driver's license, and pass a weapons familiarity certification course. Holly Smith, a USU junior majoring in Spanish, said there are a lot of women on campus who are afraid of rape, and they should have the right to carry a weapon for defending themselves. "If you ban guns, the people who aren't allowed to have them are probably going to have them anyway, and the people who are honest and responsible about it won't have them and won't be able to protect themselves," she said. Matt Sinfield, a junior majoring in welding engineering, said the university should be able to ban guns on campus. "I don't think guns have a place in school," he said. Carrie Delgado, a senior majoring in both elementary education and Spanish, said it depends on the mental condition of the person carrying the gun, but sane people should be allowed to carry concealed weapons if they have permits. —royburton@cc.usu.edu - ---------------- Charles Hardy ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 20:47:28 -0700 From: charles hardy Subject: OFF-TOPIC: I'm back to work I just wanted to drop a quick note to all me e-friends and let you know that I am no longer un-employed. I have re-joined the ranks of taxpayers by accepting a hardware design position at L3 Communications here in SLC. Thank you to all those who offered assistance, advice, contacts, kind words, your prayers, or other assistance. My family and I have been truly blessed in what could have been a most difficult season. On another personal front, my wife and new baby son are doing well and life is now starting to get back to as normal as life ever is with a family. :) Thank you again. - ---------------- Charles Hardy ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 08:32:40 -0700 From: "David Sagers" Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC: I'm back to work Congratulations on the job and family! - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:39:48 -0700 From: Scott Bergeson Subject: Introductory video clip available for 'Innocents Betrayed' Introductory video clip available for 'Innocents Betrayed' - ---------- JPFO The introductory segment of the JPFO documentary film, "Innocents Betrayed," is now online for viewing. This segment is offered as proof that the project is well under way. All it needs now is your support! (11/16/02) http://www.free-market.net/rd/28910113.html - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 20:06:48 -0700 From: Scott Bergeson Subject: FW: Boycott Meier & Frank - -=-=- Subject: FW: Boycott Meier & Frank Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 17:07:40 -0700 From: Jim Dexter Basic Question: Does Meier & Frank, a private company, have the right to make "no guns on premises" a condition of employment? BTW, Mitch Vilos is scheduled to be on my show this coming Tuesday. We'll be discussing this and the similar-but-different AOL case. Call up and chime in. 254-5855 in SL County. - ------------------------------- Let's circulate this fine young man's story and encourage them not only NOT TO SHOP at Meier and Frank, but to call and tell them you don't plan on shopping there. - -----Original Message----- I talked to you a couple of days ago about my being suspended from my employment at Meier and Frank because I had a concealed weapon on me. The results of their investigation actually just came back and my position has been terminated. Anyway, just to help get this out to the public so that something can be done about this California company that thinks they can disarm the lawabiding citizens of Utah, I am including a brief summary of details involved with my case. I have a CCW and I often do carry a concealed firearm with me to work. I have a good understanding of the laws involved with carrying a concealed firearm and have had more than the 8 hours required training to obtain my permit. I have also worked as an armed security officer. I always maintain positive control of my weapon, never leaving it where anyone unauthorized could get a hold of it. Most of the time when I went to work, I would leave my gun in my locked car, but on the day that I got suspended from work, I had ridden the bus so my wife could have the car. Apparently someone got a glimpse of my gun on my side and pannicked which has now resulted in my termination. I have a squeeky clean criminal record, am active in the predominant religion in the Salt Lake Valley, and have a deep belief in Christ. I have one child at home and my wife is pregnant with our second. I am currently attending the University of Utah under an Army ROTC scholarship with a major in Criminology. My goals are to either remain active duty in the Army until retirement or, if things work out in my favor, try my hand at federal law enforcement. I don't see where I would appear to be a threat to anybody. I have had threats made on my life in the past, and that is why I carry a gun. I will not allow myself to be left defenseless! - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:20:24 -0700 From: Scott Bergeson Subject: FW: The Fearsome Second Amendment http://www.sierratimes.com/02/12/08/dorothy.htm The Fearsome Second Amendment By Dorothy Anne Seese - Sierra Times Now just read these words. You will recognize the document (I hope) as the Declaration of Independence, and then we will look at the Second Amendment to the Constitution. But first, consider these statements: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. - That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, - That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government...." Institute new government? Isn't that what the American Revolution did? It tossed off the yoke of King George III and formed a new nation based on a radical concept ... that government exists solely with the consent of the governed. The founding fathers were well aware of the nature of tyrants to take over and make slaves of the sheeple, and realized that man's tendency to follow one or more deceivers back into slavery would ever be a present danger to the constitutional republic that they had established. Thus, the Bill of Rights, the statement of what government may not do, places freedom of religion, speech and the press first, along with the right of peaceable assembly, and then proceeds to the second matter of importance to the people's power to retain their freedom: Amendment IIA A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. Have you ever heard the "liberal" camp yell with college-game volume that "well-regulated militia" means that the government and only the government has the right to keep and bear arms (possess guns)? It is well nigh the bumper-sticker and yard-sale sign of the antigun crowd, those who would divest Americans of any and all rights of self-protection other than dialing 911 and hoping the police appear before a thug fires HIS gun. Since the September 11, 2001 attack on the World Trade Center, a very popular bumper sticker, out west at least, has disappeared. It read "when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns." Perhaps it is only an "outlaw" government and those who would outlaw the Bill of Rights (in practice, not in legislative action like persons of integrity who do things up front) that would even consider "gun control" as the solution to any problems with nuts who wrongfully use guns ... or box cutters, knives, clubs, hammers or other weapons to commit homicide. No government that is committed to the freedoms of the people presented by the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and Bill of Rights would ever consider abrogating the Second Amendment. It would be at the top of the agenda of a renegade government that wished to retain all power over the people ... people whose rights include changing their government should it become oppressive and tyrannical, an enemy of freedom, and a stronghold of a power elite. Today's leaders are well aware of the rights of the people as envisioned by the founders. While they keep speaking about our great liberties before the television cameras, behind the scenes those liberties are being pickpocketed coin by coin from the people so that they cannot use the right they were given to change, by force if necessary, an oppressive and tyrannical government. The "liberal" establishment, devout in their dedication to the Marxist agenda, and those elements that envision America as the New Rome of world empire, naturally fear the power of the people: Armed people; The "minuteman" types of people who would effect change by their "well regulated militias" against a government that had abrogated their rights and liberties as free people. That is why there is such a push by the entire "liberal" establishment and the airhead soccer mom crowd to outlaw guns. The number of children killed on any one day by other means far, far outstrips any deaths by loose nuts who happen to use a gun, and would use explosives were they denied access to guns. A killer is a killer. Remember, Alexander of Macedon had no guns ... nor did the Roman Caesar. Guns are simply a more efficient way to kill, but any method will do. Witness the suicide bombings in the marketplaces in Israel by Islamic militants ... no guns, just explosives. The Second Amendment is fearsome in two ways. It is a fearsome empowering of the people to take over and throw out an oppressive government as did the founding fathers who authored the Bill of Rights. They had obtained a free land and a new venture in personal liberty under the rule of law, and they gave the people the right to change the government any time it suppressed the rights of the people and oppressed the people with tyranny. It is a fearsome threat to the establishment that would make a "global village" out of a nation of patriots who detest the welfare, nanny state and the tyrants who take our liberties and dole them out to the few as privileges. They wish to make sure that there is no power or armed force by which the people can carry out the doctrines written in the Declaration of Independence and other cornerstones of this nation. The idea that "the people" (who are the great unwashed ignoramuses in the minds of these elitists) could actually fight once again for the liberties they were guaranteed over 225 years ago is noxious to them. Power to the people? The very idea makes them shudder. That is why the Second Amendment is so fearsome, particularly when coupled with the right of free speech guaranteed by the First Amendment. No tyrant can stand in the presence of liberty without flinching and bristling at the threat of someone challenging that tyranny. And that is why the conservatives who value our nation's heritage must keep up the fight against any government or dictator taking our liberties, our guns, and our constitutional rights. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 18:22:23 GMT From: utbagpiper@juno.com Subject: No way to felons get RKBA back until Congress acts. From today's front page Deseret News. I wonder if any of our "pro-gun" congressmen or senators (either GOP or democrat) will be pushing to correct the current catch-22. Not only should the ban on the BATF processing these requests be lifted, but a hard time limit should be imposed for the agency to render a decision on any given case AND to provide an appeal to the courts if a request is denied. Of course eliminating the automatic life-time ban for all non-violent felonies or even treating RKBA the same way freedom of religion, assoication, etc, are treeted, would be way too scary and radical. Charles ========== Supreme Court rules against felons in guns-rights case By Gina Holland Associated Press writer WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court shut the door Tuesday on felons going straight to court to get their gun rights restored, leaving no options for people who claim a conviction shouldn't stop them from being a gun owner. The justices ruled unanimously that felons must go through a federal agency. That agency, however, has been banned by Congress since 1992 from processing requests. Federal law prohibits felons from carrying guns, but they can ask for an exception. In this case, a former Texas gun dealer argued that the process gives him no option. He sued and a lower court gave Thomas Lamar Bean his firearms license back. Tuesday's decision took it away again. Bean, a well-known businessman, was convicted of violating Mexican law after officers found 200 rounds of bullets in his car during a dinner trip across the border four years ago. He said he'd told his assistants to remove the bullets. When Bean tried to get his gun rights — and livelihood — back, he was supported by two police chiefs, a sheriff, a judge, a prosecutor and a Baptist preacher. Justice Clarence Thomas, writing for the justices, said that Bean could only go to court if his request was denied by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. The bureau didn't act on his application. Thomas said the ATF, not a judge, was best prepared to look into whether an applicant could be a danger to public safety. The justices rejected Bean's argument that the government's inability to act amounted to a denial. The ruling had been expected. Nelson Lund, a law professor at George Mason University, said an appeals court decision that allowed Bean to bypass the ATF "looked like an effort by the court to solve an injustice through some creative legal innovation." "If you think this is a problem, the obvious way to solve it is through Congress. Congress created this situation and they can fix it, which they may do when the Republicans have control of both houses and the presidency," Lund said. ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 18:10:30 -0700 From: Scott Bergeson Subject: THE CONTINUING GUN CONTROL AGENDA Excerpted from World Affairs Brief, December 13, 2002 Copyright Joel Skousen. Partial quotations with attribution permitted. Cite source as Joel Skousen's World Affairs Brief (http://www.JoelSkousen.com/). THE CONTINUING GUN CONTROL AGENDA The Bush administration, while pretending to support Second Amendment gun rights, continues to abridge those rights in small hidden ways. For example, new ATF regulations effective May 24, 2003 will require that a whole new list of products and chemicals (include smokeless powder used by amateur ammunition reloaders) can only be purchased by a person who has obtained a permit issued by the ATF. If you are a reloader (and all concerned with preparedness should have at least a limited capability in this area), make sure you stock up on reloading powders and primers before May. The government knows that controlling the supply of ammunition is one way to limit the usefulness of America's private weapons. If you don't reload, you should stockpile ammunition in reasonable quantities. - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 19:10:52 -0800 From: Joe Waldron Subject: Re: THE CONTINUING GUN CONTROL AGENDA Scott Bergeson wrote: >Excerpted from World Affairs Brief, December 13, 2002 >Copyright Joel Skousen. Partial quotations with >attribution permitted. Cite source as Joel Skousen's >World Affairs Brief (http://www.JoelSkousen.com/). > >THE CONTINUING GUN CONTROL AGENDA > >The Bush administration, while pretending to support >Second Amendment gun rights, continues to abridge >those rights in small hidden ways. For example, new >ATF regulations effective May 24, 2003 will require >that a whole new list of products and chemicals >(include smokeless powder used by amateur ammunition >reloaders) can only be purchased by a person who has >obtained a permit issued by the ATF. If you are a >reloader (and all concerned with preparedness should >have at least a limited capability in this area), >make sure you stock up on reloading powders and >primers before May. The government knows that >controlling the supply of ammunition is one way to >limit the usefulness of America's private weapons. >If you don't reload, you should stockpile ammunition >in reasonable quantities. > > > Not true. Your own Orrin Hatch reinserted the "standard" exemption for smokeless powder and up to 50# of black. Read the bill as it passed Congress, NOT as it was introduced. Joe W - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 06:19:39 -0800 From: Joe Waldron Subject: Re: THE CONTINUING GUN CONTROL AGENDA Scott Bergeson wrote: >Excerpted from World Affairs Brief, December 13, 2002 >Copyright Joel Skousen. Partial quotations with >attribution permitted. Cite source as Joel Skousen's >World Affairs Brief (http://www.JoelSkousen.com/). > >THE CONTINUING GUN CONTROL AGENDA > >The Bush administration, while pretending to support >Second Amendment gun rights, continues to abridge >those rights in small hidden ways. For example, new >ATF regulations effective May 24, 2003 will require >that a whole new list of products and chemicals >(include smokeless powder used by amateur ammunition >reloaders) can only be purchased by a person who has >obtained a permit issued by the ATF. If you are a >reloader (and all concerned with preparedness should >have at least a limited capability in this area), >make sure you stock up on reloading powders and >primers before May. The government knows that >controlling the supply of ammunition is one way to >limit the usefulness of America's private weapons. >If you don't reload, you should stockpile ammunition >in reasonable quantities. > > > Not true. Your own Orrin Hatch reinserted the "standard" exemption for smokeless powder and up to 50# of black. Read the bill as it passed Congress, NOT as it was introduced. Joe W - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 07:19:58 -0700 From: Scott Bergeson Subject: A PILOT'S WELCOME TO PASSENGERS A PILOT'S WELCOME TO PASSENGERS http://www.whoohoo.net/pilot/index.htm Need a smile? Listen to this pilot welcome passengers to his special flight. Sit back, relax and enjoy the rest of your flight. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 14:55:39 -0700 From: Scott Bergeson Subject: Re: THE CONTINUING GUN CONTROL AGENDA On 14 Dec 2002 12:51:40 -0700 Joel Skousen responds: Thanks for the clarification. I will make a correction. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Bergeson" To: "Joel Skousen" Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 6:42 AM Subject: Re: THE CONTINUING GUN CONTROL AGENDA > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: THE CONTINUING GUN CONTROL AGENDA > Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 19:10:52 -0800 > From: Joe Waldron > To: utah-firearms@lists.xmission.com > > Scott Bergeson wrote: > > >Excerpted from World Affairs Brief, December 13, 2002 > >Copyright Joel Skousen. Partial quotations with > >attribution permitted. Cite source as Joel Skousen's > >World Affairs Brief (http://www.JoelSkousen.com/). > > >THE CONTINUING GUN CONTROL AGENDA > > >The Bush administration, while pretending to support > >Second Amendment gun rights, continues to abridge > >those rights in small hidden ways. For example, new > >ATF regulations effective May 24, 2003 will require > >that a whole new list of products and chemicals > >(include smokeless powder used by amateur ammunition > >reloaders) can only be purchased by a person who has > >obtained a permit issued by the ATF. If you are a > >reloader (and all concerned with preparedness should > >have at least a limited capability in this area), > >make sure you stock up on reloading powders and > >primers before May. The government knows that > >controlling the supply of ammunition is one way to > >limit the usefulness of America's private weapons. > >If you don't reload, you should stockpile ammunition > >in reasonable quantities. > > Not true. Your own Orrin Hatch reinserted the "standard" exemption for > smokeless powder and up to 50# of black. Read the bill as it passed > Congress, NOT as it was introduced. > > Joe W - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 12:07:53 -0700 From: Scott Bergeson Subject: FW: 9th Circus "Rest of the Story" Please ask Jim Dexter should you need original headers. Scott - ----- I've been reading Silveira v. Lockyer, the recent 9th Circuit case that held that the Second Amendment does not give citizens an individual right to keep and bear arms - only a state right to have a militia. The following illustrates the court's method: 1. The court wishes to show that the militia referred to in the Constitution is only the organized military force, not the people as a whole. 2. So it quotes James Madison from the Federalist Papers as follows: "Let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of the federal government; still it would not be going too far to say, that the State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to repel the danger. ... Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of." 3. Now you will notice that there is an ellipsis in this quote ( ... ) What could be missing? 4. What the court left out was the following: "The highest number to which, according to the best computation, a standing army can be carried in any country, does not exceed one hundredth part of the whole number of souls; or one twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms. This proportion would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men. To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence. It may well be doubted, whether a militia thus circumstanced could ever be conquered by such a proportion of regular troops. Those who are best acquainted with the last successful resistance of this country against the British arms, will be most inclined to deny the possibility of it." 5. Now, why did the court leave this part of the quote out? It shows that Madison is estimating the population of the 13 original states at between 2.5 and 3 million. (One independent estimate I have shows 2.9 free inhabitants.) He estimates "a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens." Is that significant? 6. You bet it is. Of 2.5-3 million citizens, about a half were female, and therefore not part of the militia. That leaves 1.25 - 1.5 million males. Families were larger than they are today; there were perhaps two children per adult, which means that around a third of the 1.25-1.5 million males would be boys - or men too old to bear arms. That leaves about "half a million" militiamen. So Madison counted in the militia all able-bodied men. Which directly disproves the court's claim that "militia" meant only the organized fighting units. 7. The writer of the opinion could not have missed this; the omitted wording is so conspicuous in the original that the omission has to be deliberate, if not by the judge, then by the law clerk or brief writer. Whoever did it needs to be hauled up before an ethics commission. And the public needs to know what some people are willing to do to destroy our constitutional rights. Rob Natelson Professor of Law University of Montana School of Law P.S. You may forward this to your membership - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 17:35:14 GMT From: utbagpiper@juno.com Subject: One last chance to oppose anti-gun nominees to Utah SC. FAX number av ailable. For any who have not already sent in a letter to oppose the nomination of anti-gun Sen. Hillyard, and Judges James Z. Davis, Robert Hilder, K. L. McIff, and Ronald Nehring to the Utah Supreme Court, there is one last chance to be heard. ALL public comments MUST be received by close of business TOMORROW, Friday, December 27. If you have not already put a letter in the mail, it is probably too late. (From within Salt Lake City, there is about a 50-50 chance normally that mail is delivered overnight. With the holiday crush of mailing and shipping...) However, comments may also be faxed to the commission either today or tomorrow. The fax number is (SLC area): 801-578-3968 Below is a sample letter (modified from a recent GOUtah! Alert so as to include Sen. Hillyard) that you are free to cut and paste directly or modify as you deem fit. Anyone as antigun as these men are, probably have all kinds of other reasons that would make them poor choices for the high bench. If you know of any, by all means, mention them. However, at this point, volume of comments is probably more important that elegant reasons. I do encourage that all letters be professional in tone however. Get your wife and teenage or adult children and neighbor to sign a copy and fax it in as well. Sometimes my email program does bad things to the end of line carriage returns or wraping. My apologies if some reformating is needed to make the cut and paste letter readable. Thanks. Charles - ------ Cut Here ------------ Date: Dec. 26, 2002 From: Your Name Your address Your city State, and Zip Your phone number To: Mr. David J. Jordan, Chairman Appellate Judicial Nomination Commission c/o Administrative Office of the Courts 450 South State Street P.O. Box 140241 Salt Lake City, UT 84114-0241 801-578-3968 -- FAX Dear Mr. Jordan: I strongly oppose the nomination of State Sen. Lyle Hillyard, and Judges James Z. Davis, Robert Hilder, K.L. McIff, and Ronald Nehring for the Utah Supreme Court. As a currently sitting and senior member of the legislature, Sen. Hillyard has doubtless been intimately involved in many pieces of recently passed, and potentially challanged legislation. How can he be expected to sit in impartial judgement of the constitutionality of a law that he may well have been instrumental in passing in the first place. Similarly, could he really be impartial should a law come before the court which had passed over the strong objections of the Senator? Also, without any experience as a judge, the citizens of Utah have no way of knowing whether Sen. Hillyard has the various traits so essential to a good judge, which is a far different job than being a lawyer or a politician. I request that you drop his name from consideration for this important position. I also request that you drop from consideration the four judges mentioned above: James Z. Davis, Robert Hilder, K.L. McIff, and Ronald Nehring. All four of these judges were instrumental in getting the Utah Judicial Council to require Utah's courts to violate state law. The Utah Code invests the State Legislature with exclusive authority to regulate the possession and carrying of firearms. The Legislature has passed laws that prohibit the carrying of firearms in courtrooms by properly licensed private citizens, but only if certain requirements are met by the court. One of these requirements is that lockers be provided outside the courtroom or courthouse to facilitate the safe storage of legally-carried self-defense weapons. Please refer to U.C.A. 76-10-501, U.C.A. 76-10-500, U.C.A. 78-7-6, and U.C.A. 76-8-311.1. In August, the Judicial Council voted to prohibit courts from installing storage lockers (a move which automatically invalidates the existing statutory ban on guns in courtrooms), and voted to impose a new courtroom gun ban via judicial fiat (an action prohibited by state law, because the Judicial Council isn't the State Legislature). Judges Davis and Hilder, as members of the Council, voted in favor of this illegal policy, as evidenced by the minutes of the Council's meeting in August of 2002. Judges McIff and Nehring, although not members of the Judicial Council at the time, implemented this illegal policy in their own district courts before the Council had even voted on the matter, and openly encouraged other judges to do the same, as documented extensively by the local news media (see, for example, The Deseret News, May 10, 2002, page A1). The American judicial system is supposed to be founded on the rule of law. Any judge who willfully ignores or violates state law ought not to serve as a Justice on the Utah Supreme Court. Please remove these judges' names from consideration. Thank you for taking the time to consider my opinion. Sincerely, ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com - - ------------------------------ End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #233 ***********************************