From: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com (utah-firearms-digest) To: utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: utah-firearms-digest V2 #250 Reply-To: utah-firearms-digest Sender: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk utah-firearms-digest Monday, November 17 2003 Volume 02 : Number 250 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 23:29:55 -0700 From: Chad Leigh -- Pengar Enterprises Inc Subject: Fwd: Georgia Runs From The Govt MATRIX. (fwd) This came across the ROC (Restore Our Constitution) mail list which I also run. It claims Utah is in on this. Anyone hear of this before? Chad Begin forwarded message: > From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org > Date: October 26, 2003 11:28:10 PM MST > To: 2roc@xpresso.com > Subject: Georgia Runs From The Govt MATRIX. (fwd) > Reply-To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > ----------------------- begin forwarded message from Brad3000 > --------------------- > > Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 00:28:01 -0500 > From: Brad3000 > Subject: Georgia Runs From The Govt MATRIX. > > > FYI - If you are not aware of MATRIX, you should be. This is simply a > new version of TIA. Definately a backdoor to Poindexter's Orwellian > Dream. Those Unix/Linux afflicted persons will love the last paragraph. > Others may just want to take the green pill.. (thx dan b) > > > Georgia runs from the MATRIX > > By Ashlee Vance in Chicago - 22/10/2003 > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/55/33540.html > > The state of Georgia has pulled out of the U.S. Department of Justice > sponsored MATRIX information collection program, leaving data only on > its felons and sexual offenders behind in the Orwellian database. > > Georgia Governor Sonny Perdue has cited both privacy concerns and costs > as the two key reasons the state will no longer participate in the > MATRIX (Multistate Anti-Terrorism Information Exchange) pilot project. > The MATRIX database has been billed as a way to keep track of citizens' > information such as their credit histories, marriage and divorce > records, > fingerprints and social security numbers. By linking this information > from several states in one, big, intrusive database, law enforcement > officials claim they would be more competent at tracking terrorists and > other nasties. > > "The State of Georgia will not transfer any additional information to > the company responsible for the MATRIX project," said Governor Perdue. > "I have held serious concerns about the privacy issues involved with > this project all along, and have decided it is in the best interest of > the people of Georgia that our state have no further participation in > the MATRIX pilot project. > > "The criminal, prison, and sexual predator information previously sub- > mitted will remain part of the database. This information is relevant > to the crime fighting purpose of the pilot project, but personal infor- > mation of law-abiding citizens is not. I feel today's decision reflects > a proper balance between fighting crime and respecting the right to > privacy." > > The list of states willing to participate in the MATRIX project is > dwindling. Kentucky, Oregon and South Carolina pulled out earlier this > year. Georgia's exit leaves the Party with Alabama, Connecticut, > Florida, > Michigan, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Utah as guinea pigs. But, > hey, > what's wrong with having a little fun at the proles' expense? > > The handy life-tracking database idea should sound familiar. DARPA > tried > to get some backing for its Total Information Awareness (TIA) program > before being shut down by Congress. It seems, however, that was bit a > mini-bump in the road. Along with TIA and MATRIX, we have NIMD (Novel > Intelligence from Massive Data); CAPPS (Computer Assisted Passenger > Pre-Screening System); HID (Human Identification at a Distance), ARM > (Activity Recognition Monitoring); F.U.K.D (Free the United Kingdom > From Drugs) and B.O.M.B.D (British Opposition to Metabolically Bistur- > bile Drugs); and G.E.F.A.F.W.I.S.P (Global Ensortium For A First World > Iniative On Scientific Practise). Phew, that's a mouthful. > > The MATRIX has been toned down since it was first introduced, after > some > uppity types like Georgia Rep. Bob Barr questioned the privacy > implicat- > ions of such an information collective. But the program does live on > and > is managed by Florida-based Seisint, which has a $4 million budget as > its disposal. > > Lest you have any concerns that the company may let little bits of your > personal information trickle out onto the Web, we urge you to rest easy > - its MATRIX Web site runs on Windows 2000 and IIS 5.0. This is a > secur- > ity conscious outfit to be sure. > > Related Links > Enter the MATRIX > Georgia statement > > Related Stories > Senators propose Patriot Act limitations > A back door to Poindexter's Orwellian dream > Meet the 'transhumanists' behind the Pentagon terror casino > Kill a Middle East head of state, win prizes! - Pentagon shows how > Total Poindexter Awareness tech spooks - a Who's Who > US gov's 'ultimate database' run by a felon > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > The idea of being able to hold a manufacturer > of a product, legally liable for any after sale > illegal misuse, is like suing Boeing for the > World Trade attacks! Brad. > -------------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------------------- > Any other views expressed herein, are my own, not bought > or sponsored in any shape or form, by or for any organization, > currently existing or not. It should be noted: the URL posted is > very likely to suddenly expire & if the reader wants to read the > full article, they should should visit the copyright holders listed > site very promptly. References & partial texts are given for > EDUCATIONAL & INFORMATIONAL purposes only as per the > "Fair Use" as described in Title-17, Sect 107 below. > -------------------------------------------------- > **COPYRIGHT NOTICE** In accordance with Title 17 USC > Section 107, any copyrighted work in this message is > distributed under fair use without profit or payment to those > who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included > information for nonprofit research & educational purposes > only. [Ref. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml] > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > ----------------------- end forwarded message from Brad3000 > --------------------- > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** > 4-19! > ----------------+----------+-------------------------- > +--------------------- > An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who > hath no > weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Planck | weapon sell his > hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and > buy a > on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus > Christ > ----------------+----------+-------------------------- > +--------------------- > > Constitutional Government is dead; LONG LIVE THE > CONSTITUTION!!!!! > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > - > - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 15:15:51 -0700 From: Scott Bergeson Subject: Symantec - Another Anti-Gun Corporation On 2 Nov 2003 16:09:02 -0500 Donald Henson wepin at wepin dot com wrote: Read all the gory details here: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/11/02/1729239 Do I hear another boycott coming? Don Henson - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 16:47:31 GMT From: Charles Hardy Subject: Don't forget to vote Tueday Just a reminder that tomorrow, Tuesday, November 4th, most all cities in Utah are having municiple elections of one kind or another. Even though Utah's State preemption removes most of the obvious RKBA related issues from the purvue of city officials, many side issues remain. Zoning laws and parks & recreation spending affect range development and preservation as well as the home based or commercial based FFL sales. City officials appoint police chiefs and otherwise set the tone for how police will regard your rights. And these non-partisan local offices often make great springboards/training grounds, for tomorrow's run at legislative office. Accordingly, Utah's gun owners should be sure to get out and vote. And please, do your best to cast an informed vote. ================== Charles Hardy ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 16:52:27 GMT From: Charles Hardy Subject: FW: The Merced Pitchfork Murders This is not a new story, but it has received far less media attention than we expect it would have had the killer used a gun rather than a pitchfork. Also, as the legislative season approaches and we are once again confronted with various bills that would require us to lock up our safety (aka "safe storage" bills) on the pretext of protecting children, it is good to remember there are very real consequences possible when access to self defense weapons is needlessly limited. ================== Charles Hardy - ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- http://www.lewrockwell.com/poe/poe1.html The Merced Pitchfork Murders by Richard Poe Fear stalks Merced, California - fear of the government. Because of that fear, two innocent children died needlessly, victims of California's "safe storage" gun laws. The mass media never told Americans what really happened in Merced. But the tale of the Merced Pitchfork Murders will not die. Through talk radio; through the Internet; by word of mouth, the story gathers momentum with each passing year. Like the tale of the Boston Massacre in 1770, passed from patriot to patriot over tankards of ale, the Merced Pitchfork Murders live and burn in the hearts of millions of Americans. On that terrible morning of August 23, 2000, fourteen-year-old Jessica Carpenter had been left in charge to look after her four siblings, Anna, 13; Vanessa, 11; Ashley, 9; and John, 7. Their father had left for work. Their mother had taken the car to get the brakes checked. Jessica heard noises from the livingroom. Still half asleep, she rose from bed and walked to the kitchen. Then she froze. There was a man in the livingroom. A strange man. He was stark naked. Jessica fled back to her bedroom and locked the door. Someone knocked. Then he knocked again. And again. Jessica picked up the phone, but heard no dial tone. The intruder had taken the receiver off the hook. That's when Jessica thought of her father's gun. Mr. Carpenter had taught Jessica and the other children to shoot. Jessica had passed her hunter safety course and received her certificate at age 12. She knew that her Dad always kept a .357 Magnum in his bedroom. In deference to California's safe storage laws, however, Mr. Carpenter kept the pistol high up on a closet shelf, unloaded and out of reach of the children. Even if she could somehow get to the other end of the house to retrieve it, Jessica knew she would have to climb up on something to reach the gun, scramble around for the bullets and then load them. The man would be on her before she had a chance. So Jessica climbed out the window to get help. Too Late No one knows why 27-year-old Jonathon David Bruce, a part-time telemarketer with a history of violence, drug abuse and mental illness, picked on the Carpenters. We only know that, on the morning of August 23, Bruce armed himself with a pitchfork and entered their home, barricading himself inside with the five Carpenter children. Jessica escaped through her bedroom window. But her little brother and three younger sisters were left behind to face the madman. He attacked thirteen-year-old Anna first. Bruce entered her bedroom and jabbed her with his pitchfork, yelling profanities while Anna screamed and fought. "Stop it!" yelled Ashley, age 9. "Don't hurt my sister!" Bruce turned to Ashley, and killed her with his pitchfork. Somehow Anna and Vanessa managed to escape out a window. Outside, the two girls met Jessica. They ran to a neighbor's house - a man named Juan Fuentes - and pounded on his door. Covered with blood and growing weaker by the moment, the wounded Anna pleaded with Fuentes to get his gun and "take care of this guy." But Fuentes declined. Instead, he allowed them to use his phone to call 911. The sheriff's deputies came quickly, but they arrived too late. John and Ashley were dead. Seven-year-old John had been killed while he slept. When the deputies entered the house, the intruder charged them with his pitchfork. They shot him 13 times, killing him on the spot. Guns and Children Most people reading these words will never have heard of the Carpenter family or their ordeal. For Big Media, the only good gun story is an anti-gun story. The Carpenters believed that California's "safe storage" laws had robbed their children of the only chance they had to fight back. This was not the sort of message Big Media wanted to send about guns. National news organizations swept the Pitchfork Murders under the rug. Only one local news story in the Fresno Bee discussed the safe storage issue at all. National news reports of the incident omitted all mention ofguns or gun laws. "John Carpenter's children are probably dead because John obeyed the laws of the state of California," says Reverend John Hilton, the great-uncle of the Carpenter children. In Hilton's view, the tragedy could have been prevented had the children been provided with easy access to a loaded gun. Many of Hilton's friends and neighbors quietly agree. Hilton - who is pastor of a Pentecostal church in Merced - recalls that, when he was growing up, his father always kept a loaded Colt .45 in a holster fastened to the pantry wall. "He was away a lot of the time, working on construction jobs," says Hilton. "But he made sure that gun was available to us, if we needed it. Without even looking, you could reach over and get hold of the handle." In those days, it was common to let children use firearms. They learned to use them early, safely and responsibly. And there were no school shootings. Ever. No More Heroes Hilton, who was 66 years old when I interviewed him in December 2000, says that he shot his first deer at age 7. By the time he was 10, he was proficient with the Colt .45 and capable of defending his family with it. Nowadays, Hilton's father would be putting himself at risk of imprisonment by giving children access to a loaded gun. California law imposes criminal penalties on gun owners if children are injured or injure others while using their guns. Technically, if Jessica or any of the other Carpenter children had managed to get hold of their father's .357 Magnum and gun down the killer, their father could have faced criminal charges. It was for fear of the law that John Carpenter kept his gun unloaded and hidden on a high closet shelf. "He's more afraid of the law than of somebody coming in for his family," Hilton told the Fresno Bee. Likewise, the neighbor who refused to intervene may well have hesitated out of fear or uncertainty about the law. In today's legal environment, heroism is not encouraged. The way to stay out of trouble is to sit back and wait for the police - even if innocent children are being slaughtered right next door. According to their mother, Tephanie Carpenter - whom I also interviewed - every one of the surviving Carpenter children vowed that they would have shot the killer if only they had had a gun handy. In fact, the wounded girl Anna told her father that, when she saw the man go after her sister Ashley, "I could have shot him right in the back of the head." The children's bravery and fighting spirit were not considered newsworthy. These elements were left out of the story by the wire services. Instead, the Carpenters' ordeal was reduced to a depressing yarn of five helpless children attacked by a maniac, a tale without meaning, moral or purpose. Media Bias The Carpenter case is but one example of a larger problem - the problem of media bias. In the Carpenters' case, their tale ended tragically. But many similar stories have a happier resolution. According to a 1995 study by criminologist Gary Kleck, Americans use firearms to defend themselves up to 2.5 million times each year - or nearly 7,000 times per day. In 11 out of 12 cases, the attacker flees as soon as his intended victim brandishes the gun or fires a warning shot. Such incidents form part of everyday life in America, yet they rarely make the news. A study by the Media Research Center released in January 2000 showed that television news stories calling for stricter gun laws outnumbered those opposing such laws by a ratio of 10 to 1. When it comes to guns and gun rights, we are hearing only one side of the story. Small wonder that few Americans are equipped to debate the issue intelligently. "Where the press is free, and every man able to read, all is safe," wrote Thomas Jefferson in 1816. But when the press aligns itself with special interests - such as the anti-gun lobby - critical information is censored, and liberty itself hangs in the balance. "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free ... it expects what never was and never will be ..." warned Jefferson. Tomorrow: Guns and Race November 3, 2003 Richard Poe [send him mail] is a New York Times-bestselling author and cyberjournalist. His latest book is The Seven Myths of Gun Control, from which this article is excerpted and adapted. He writes for NewsMax.com and runs his own blog site. ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 22:15:08 GMT From: Charles Hardy Subject: FW: Park CIty School Board anti-gun For any who live in Park City school district... ================== Charles Hardy - ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: FW: Park CIty School Board anti-gun Notice in neither alleged incident were the children injured. They had been educated one way or the other on what to do - leave the gun alone, tell an adult. This shows that education, not disarmament, is the key to gun safety. Without education, if a criminal throws away a crime weapon and kids find it, you have a death despite the fact that you have disarmed concealed weapon permit holders. Mitch - -----Original Message----- From: John Spangler Friends- Article in today's Deseret News describes Park City's reluctant compliance with state law. They plan to vote on asking the legislature to ban permit holders from carrying in schools at their next meeting on November 18th. It would be good to get some pro-self defense people at the meeting (and letters to board members before hand) to protest their foolish insistence on the "Columbine Security Plan" whereby criminals are ensured that they will not encounter any resistence. As a minimum, we should seek to have them WAIVE IMMUNITY FOR BOTH THE DISTRICT AND THE BOARD MEMBERS PERSONALLY for any damages suffered from illegal weapons in schools. After all, "It's for The Children." John Spangler http://deseretnews.com/dn/view2/1,4382,525035811,00.html Park City also wants to keep schools gun-free By Stephen Speckman Deseret Morning News Make that two school districts that are being vocal about their disagreement with a new state law that allows concealed-weapons permit holders to bring guns into classrooms. Salt Lake City was the first, adopting a resolution in September that asks for schools to get equal "protection from weapons that is afforded private residences and houses of worship." Park City School District's Board of Education began considering Tuesday a resolution that also asks the state to keep their schools gun free. Park City and other districts have policies that now reflect state law, but philosophical defiance of that law is gaining momentum. "We reluctantly changed our policy to conform with the new law," said superintendent Dave Adamson. "However, because our board still disagrees with that law, we wanted to be clear about that disagreement." He'd like to see an exception made for schools. Board members are expected to vote on a final resolution Nov. 18. After that, the plan is to send copies to key lawmakers, including Senate Majority Leader Mike Waddoups, R-Taylorsville, who sponsored the gun bill that won the governor's approval last legislative session. Waddoups said he intends to seek clarification of SB108 in the next session, in part because of a court ruling that allows one university to continue its ban on guns. Opposition to the law first emerged when the University of Utah, a state-funded public institution, took to court its 25-year-old policy that bans guns on campus. A 3rd District judge upheld the policy in August, but the Utah Attorney General's Office last month filed a notice of appeal. "We're not trying to put guns all over campus," Waddoups said. He just wants to see that permit holders retain the right to carry guns in non-secured areas. That means all public schools. "I don't want guns in schools either," Waddoups added. "But until we can keep all the guns out, permit holders will be allowed to carry theirs." That attitude hasn't set well with some school districts. Salt Lake City was the first district to fire a shot at the law. Not just stopping at a resolution, the board of education has gone so far as to order signs that "urge" permit holders to not bring their weapons into school. Looking like a "STOP" sign you'd see on the road, it reads, "Please help us keep our schools safe and free from drugs, weapons and violence." The signs are being printed and should be at entrances to all 38 of the district's schools next week. Salt Lake and Granite districts both had policies before the law that barred employees from bringing guns to work. That has changed. In Park City, concern over the law stems from the potential for "unintended consequences," Adamson said. Those might include someone putting a gun in a purse or coat and then either leaving it behind or it being stolen. "I can't imagine anyone would intend to inflict harm in a school," he said. "But accidents do happen." Cases in point, a 12-year-old boy last year found an unloaded shotgun a man mistakenly left next to a recycling bin at Viewmont Elementary after he unloaded newspapers. Around the same time, three sixth-graders found a gun accidentally dropped by a man who was walking his dog in the schoolyard at Mill Creek Elementary - the man had a concealed weapons permit. ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 17:27:44 GMT From: Charles Hardy Subject: FW: Gun Ban Vote Coming November 5th The congressional web page indicates this bill passed yesterday on a suspension of the rules and voice vote. Any guesses on how much effort ANY of Utah's three Reps put into trying to stop this bill. Of course, it doesn't really affect any of us, YET, so maybe we don't care about it any more than a lot of "sportsmen" care when "scary-looking" guns are banned. ================== Charles Hardy - ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- - ---------- Gun Owners of America E-Mail Alert 8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102, Springfield, VA 22151 Phone: 703-321-8585 / FAX: 703-321-8408 http://www.gunowners.org ACTION: Please use the pre-written text below to help direct your comments to your Representative. The vote on the gun ban is scheduled in the House for Wednesday, November 5. Tuesday, November 4, 2003 It's outrageous. The Republicans in the House of Representatives tell us they don't have enough time to pass a concealed carry bill or the Citizen's Self-Defense Act. But they have time to take up a ban on guns that don't even exist. H.R. 3348, which is scheduled for a vote tomorrow, would renew the unconstitutional ban on plastic guns. This firearm has never existed, and it may never. Yet the House will consider renewing the ban for another 10 years. If a totally plastic gun is ever developed, a ban will not keep bad guys from getting their hands on such a firearm any more than the other 20,000 or so gun laws keep murderers and thieves from getting their hands on guns now. Has the Congress taken care of real problems related to terrorism? Have they gotten the Transportation Safety Administration to arm pilots? Not unless 200 or so pilots (out of 100,000-plus) is their idea of arming pilots. The real answer to airport security is to arm the pilots. Had they been armed on 9-11, terrorists never would have tried to hijack those four planes. And how about forcing the TSA to hire the North Carolina college student, Nathaniel Heatwole, to instruct the TSA on how to tighten their "security" procedures at airports. Heatwole is the student who successfully smuggled boxcutters and other weapons on several planes. He was only caught because he e-mailed the Transportation Safety Agency about what he had done. But before the TSA is made to hire Mr. Heatwole, Congress should do something really useful, such as letting any pilot with a concealed carry permit to take a gun inside the cockpit so we can have effective homeland security. Obviously, we will never have armed pilots as long as Congress tolerates the TSA's mismanagement of this program. This is a serious issue. If Congress can exercise unconstitutional power to ban plastic guns, they can do the same with semi-automatic firearms. Please visit the Gun Owners Legislative Action Center at http://www.gunowners.org/activism.htm RIGHT AWAY to send the pre-written message below to your Representative. - ----- Pre-written message ----- Dear Representative: I urge you to vote against H.R. 3348. This bill is unconstitutional, and it is a useless waste of taxpayers' money and of your time. Plus, the gun it purports to ban doesn't even exist! If a totally plastic gun is ever developed, a ban will not keep bad guys from getting their hands on such a firearm any more than the other 20,000 or so gun laws keep murderers and thieves from getting their hands on guns now. You have much more important things to do. Please, instead of wasting your time banning a gun that does not exist, force the Transportation Safety Administration to arm pilots. You might also spend your time getting the TSA to figure out how a college student repeatedly got weapons past the "security" points at airports and was only discovered because he sent an e-mail to the TSA. Perhaps that same student could help your own "security" screeners on Capitol Hill, since they were rather embarrassed by a staffer who inadvertently snuck past them with a toy gun that was part of a Halloween costume. Gun Owners of America will inform me how you vote. Please vote against H.R. 3348. Sincerely, **************************** Defend The 2nd Amendment Through Creative Giving... As we confront the challenges of the future, we know that the generosity of those who assist us will make all the difference in our success. That's why GOA seeks your long-term support. Please call 703-321-8585 during regular business hours or e-mail goamail@gunowners.org to request information on how to keep control of your assets and make a gift at the same time through: * a bequest * a retirement plan * a will or living trust * an insurance policy Requests for information are confidential and do not represent an obligation. **************************** Please do not reply directly to this message, as your reply will bounce back as undeliverable. To subscribe to free, low-volume GOA alerts, go to http://www.gunowners.org/ean.htm on the web. Change of e-mail address may also be made at that location. To unsubscribe send a message to gunowners_list@capwiz.mailmanager.net with the word unsubscribe in the subject line. Problems, questions or comments? The main GOA e-mail address goamail@gunowners.org is at your disposal. Please do not add that address to distribution lists sending more than ten messages per week or lists associated with issues other than gun rights. - --- You may unsubscribe from our mailing list at any time by visiting http://capwiz.com/gunowners/lmx/u/?jobid=26670723. - ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles. No Late Fees & Free Shipping. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/xlw.sC/XP.FAA/3jkFAA/8zNplB/TM - ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> LPUTAH LPUTAH -- unsubscribe: LPUtah-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com LPUTAH -- support: elwell@xmission.com LPUTAH -- forum page: http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/LPUtah LPUTAH -- LPUtah page: www.lputah.org LPUTAH Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 19:49:01 GMT From: Charles Hardy Subject: Fw: PayPal and Guns Don't know how new this is, but thought gun owning web users might be interested. ================== Charles Hardy - ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- - --- In Underground_Economy@yahoogroups.com, "skypod \(Melissa\)" wrote: > NEW PayPal Acceptable Use Policy: NO MORE FIREARM OR RELATED SALES > - --- End forwarded message --- ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 12:55:41 -0700 From: Chad Leigh -- Pengar Enterprises Inc Subject: Re: PayPal and Guns Hi This appears to be the same (the link is broken at least in my mail program but I found it again) policy they have had for a long time and mostly applies to their "webstores" feature. I avoid paypal anyway since they have huge fees. I do accept cash paypal payments for stuff from www.eguns.com . Chad utah-firearms list-dad On Nov 7, 2003, at 12:49 PM, Charles Hardy wrote: > > > Don't know how new this is, but thought gun owning web users might be > interested. > > ================== > Charles Hardy > > > ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- > --- In Underground_Economy@yahoogroups.com, "skypod \(Melissa\)" > wrote: >> NEW PayPal Acceptable Use Policy: NO MORE FIREARM OR RELATED SALES >> outside&ed=firearms> > --- End forwarded message --- > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > - > - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 10:26:26 -0700 From: Scott Bergeson Subject: Judge Alex Kozinski strikes again On 14 Nov 2003 06:01:52 -0500 hunter at mva dot net wrote: This is the Bob Stewart "Maadi-Griffin" case. ===== The Ninth Circuit has just held that Congress lacks the power to ban possession of homemade machineguns - the Commerce Clause, the court held (per Judge Kozinski, joined by Judge T.G. Nelson; Judge Restani of the Court of International Trade, sitting by designation, dissenting), doesn't go that far. The court specifically did not rely on the Second Amendment, because of binding Ninth Circuit precedent holding that the Second Amendment doesn't secure an individual right. So states may still ban such possession, and Congress can ban the sale of machineguns (even purely intrastate sale) - but Congress may not ban private possession, at least of the homemade devices. http://volokh.com/2003_11_09_volokh_archive.html#106875771986904670 ===== The new Commerce Clause jurisprudence (Lopez and Morrison ) comes home to roost in the Ninth Circuit's pathbreaking decision today that holds that the federal government may not ban a homemade machine gun. http://lsolum.blogspot.com/2003_11_01_lsolum_archive.html#106876112035798273 - --- Hunter's Eighty-Eighth Rule: To establish a reputation as a marksman, never tell anyone what you're aiming at. - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 22:50:56 GMT From: Charles Hardy Subject: FW: Lavarr Webb supports Ballot initiative Looks like things are really getting going on this front. Do your part to educate your friends and neighbors about this so they don't just sign what sounds like a good idea. Ask them if they've read the initative. It runs over 7 pages which seems like a lot to just outlaw guns in schools. Copies are available at . This initiative does nothing to further penalize real criminals who commit real crimes. It is aimed entirely at law abiding citizens who have jumped through all the hoops, including fingerprinting, photographs, and FBI background checks, to get a CCW permit. This initiative would infringe on religious freedom by banning guns at all churches regardless of whether or not the church wanted to ban guns. I'm not sure, but this may actually go beyond just CCW and prevent a hunter safety or merit badge class involving guns from being conducted at a church. It includes both public and PRIVATE day cares and pre-schools in its prohibition. How many neighborhoods don't have at least one licensed private day care or preschool. This makes it a crime to take a gun into ANY private residence unless the homeowner gives explicit permission. So much for CONCEALED carry. EVERY visit to neighbors, friends, family, etc will require you to either leave you gun at home (or in a car, etc) OR declare that you have it in the form of asking permission to enter. This initiative errodes our State preemption by specifically granting power to the board of regents to regulate guns on campus. A CCW permit holder might very well find himself in violation of the law simply by walking across a college lawn. It also extends "school grounds" to ANY place being used exclusively for a school sponsored activity. Under the right conditions, the Expo Center, the symphony, or other very public locations could become temporary, and unposted no-gun zones. ================== Charles Hardy - ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- (Keep in mind that this was published the same week that a janitor was raped twice at the already Safe-To-Learn UofU.) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From John Spangler. Fellow members of the "powerful gun lobby"- Today's Deseret News had following opinion piece by Lavarr Webb promoting ban on guns in schools, and publicizing the petition drive http://deseretnews.com/dn/view2/1,4382,525037758,00.html Allowing guns in Utah schools is nutty By LaVarr Webb I'm a moderately conservative Republican who owns guns. I've owned guns nearly my whole life. Some of my fondest memories come from tramping the fields and marshes hunting waterfowl or pheasants and hiking to the top of Blue Mountain in San Juan County on the opening day of the deer hunt. I think people ought to be able to own guns, and I'm a staunch defender of that right. However, I don't believe guns belong in schools. And I also believe that private property owners ought to be able to control whether people bring guns onto their property. While polls clearly show my beliefs on this issue are mainstream Utah, I realize that I am at odds with some of my conservative brothers and sisters in the Legislature who fervently believe that people with concealed weapons permits should be able to pack their guns nearly anywhere they please. I don't have a problem with concealed weapons permits. Utah law allows essentially any law-abiding citizen to obtain such a permit, and many thousands have done so. But I do believe there ought to be some restrictions on where you can pack a gun. Schools, for example, ought to be off limits. And if a business owner doesn't want guns on the premises, the business ought to be able to ban them. This private property issue is very big because presently many large businesses are likely in technical violation of the current law if, for example, they use metal detectors to screen employees and visitors and don't allow people with guns onto their premises. To me, allowing guns in schools (except for trained law enforcement personnel) is just plain nutty. Mixing loaded weapons with several hundred rambunctious kids in an elementary or junior high school is a recipe for disaster. Proponents of guns in schools argue that an armed teacher or custodian might just be able to protect children if a bad person tries to harm them. But this is the role of trained school security personnel. Concealed weapons permit holders are not trained in the use of firearms in life-and-death circumstances. In a standoff or a tense situation, the more guns that get pulled out, the scarier it becomes. And to me it's just common sense that if a teacher, custodian or parent is routinely taking a loaded handgun into a school, the danger of a tragic accident is a thousand times more likely than that concealed weapons permit holder protecting children from some deranged person. That's why Utah educators are almost unanimously against having guns in schools. Knowing that a teacher or custodian is packing a gun doesn't make me feel my children are safer. It makes me feel they are in danger, and I wouldn't want my child in a class where the teacher carries a gun. Kids are smart. Kids are curious. Kids are irresponsible. Kids are unpredictable. Allowing guns in schools is a tragedy waiting to happen. Before the last legislative session, the law was a bit unclear whether schools could keep guns out. But in the last session the Legislature passed a law explicitly allowing concealed weapons permit holders to take their guns to school. I am usually a strong defender of our Republican Legislature. I think that, for the most part, our lawmakers reflect the will of the citizens and they do the right things. In the future, I will continue to defend and support them and their re-election campaigns. But anyone can make a mistake, even good Republican legislators, and I strongly believe that on this issue they simply went too far and what they did needs to be overturned. I understand that even NRA leaders have made statements saying guns don't belong in schools. Because it's doubtful that the Legislature will ever reverse itself on this issue (the gun lobby is just too powerful), a bipartisan coalition of citizens has formed an organization called Havens for Learning. The group's goal is to collect enough signatures to put this issue on the general election ballot in November 2004 to allow voters to decide if they want guns in schools and if private property owners ought to be able to keep guns off their premises. I am a volunteer supporter of Havens for Learning, along with a lot of other Republicans, including former U.S. Sen. Jake Garn. It will be very difficult, and expensive, to get this issue on the ballot so voters can choose. With more than 70 percent of Utahns supporting the Havens for Learning position, it would seem the around 80,000 required signatures could be readily gathered. But ballot initiative campaigns are a lot harder than they appear. Previous attempts on this issue have failed. It will require a major statewide organization and a veritable army of volunteers to gather the signatures. Then it will take a sophisticated campaign to get it passed next November. Thousands of Utahns will have to step up and get involved for the effort to be successful. Want to help or get more information? Send an e-mail message to info@havensforlearning.org. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- Republican LaVarr Webb was policy deputy to Gov. Mike Leavitt and Deseret News managing editor. He now is a political consultant and lobbyist. E-mail: lwebb@exoro.com. A new Democratic counterpart will join Webb shortly. ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! - - ------------------------------ End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #250 ***********************************