From: Zorn List Digest Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 1997 10:43 PM To: zorn-list-digest@xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #184 Zorn List Digest Wednesday, December 3 1997 Volume 02 : Number 184 In this issue: - Down Home Down Home Avant dogmatism (was: Down Home) Off topic: Bay Area musicians query Circular Breathing Herbie zornjazz solo guitar & ethnic orchestral Down Home Down Home Medeski Martin & Wood 12/6 Re: solo guitar & ethnic orchestral Re: solo guitar & ethnic orchestral Re: solo guitar & ethnic orchestral Re: solo guitar & ethnic orchestral ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:29:10 -0500 From: acapps@usit.net (ashley capps) Subject: Down Home >On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, ashley capps wrote: > >> I like to think of it as a poetic use of sad, but perhaps that's odd. . . >> at any rate I suspect that Diamanda meant it. I suppose it is rather naive >> to think that any audience will be all that much different from another. It >> would be nice to think that those interested in the "avant-garde" are >> interested out of an openness to experience and an interest in expanding >> their awareness of things. But I suppose, more often than not, it is, as I >> posted earlier, a religion. . . with all the accompanying dogmas and >> commandments. In the case of the avant-garde, it helps create the >> appropriate life-style soundtrack for the "outsider" much as Kenny G and >> "smooth" jazz do for the yupsters. I'm sorry to have expected more. I was >> just wallowing in momentary wash of idealism. It didn't last long. >> >> Ashley > >Let me be sure I am grokking what you are saying here, or trying to say. >Do you mean to say that if a person doesn't like this record that they >are closed-minded? No, I wasn't saying this. Xenophobic? That this one record alone represents all >other musics besides avant-garde jazz? I'm certainly not saying this. Where would you get this from? You must REALLY like Down Home to >be so insulting in your defense of it. Well, it was a little insulting for you to call it "antiseptic" and "soulless" and music for the weather channel, don't cha think? And maybe even a little insulting to me to insinuate that my tastes would lead me to like such a thing? Don't get your feeling hurt so easily, Mike. . . you were dishing it out yourself. I mean, it's a record. The beauty >of music (if I could descend into cliche' for a moment here) is that there >is something for everyone, and that not everything appeals to every >listener. I would wager that I listen to musics that you find repulsive >on a level that no one else could understand, but I would never call you >closed minded on that account. Thanks. But I would really love to check out something that I might find repulsive. Would you recommend a few things to me along those lines? I appreciate your point of view, but >express it by defending the record, and not by attacking the records >detractors. I'm not going to say anything else about this. - Mike Again, I really wasn't intending to be personally insulting and if I was, I apologize. My speculation about the "narrow-mindedness" of some followers of the so-called (or perhaps no longer so-called) "avant-garde" was really little more than amused, though not totally invalid, speculation. But, you know, if the shoe fits. . . But seriously, no need to take things so hard. I suspect we share a lot of musical interests or we wouldn't both be subscribing to the list. Peace. And don't forget that list of recommended repulsive listening. Ashley - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:28:13 -0500 From: acapps@usit.net (ashley capps) Subject: Down Home >You are taking this way too personally. I just don't like the record. >Perhaps my feelings on the matter shouldn't have been put into words. I >bought it, I was excited, I listened to it, and I didn't like it. That's >that. - Mike To tell you the truth, Mike, I actually haven't been taking this personally at all. I've been amusing myself a bit and trying to make a point. I haven't really meant to be insulting, and I apologize if I've crossed over the line. I was primarily responding to the rather curt dismissal of Joey's latest effort as worthless music for "the weather channel", which was seconded by another member of this list. I was speculating, accurately I think, that the negative reaction was based on the fact that this record isn't "out there" or "avant-garde" or whatever, and was rather an in-the-pocket r'n'b groove thang. When Chris Hamilton asked for the opinions of others, I thought my perception of where these initial negative comments were coming from were somewhat relevant. Again, I also think that I was right, based on subsequent posts. Then, when you come back with with the "antiseptic" and "soulless" comments and that this kind of stuff is coming out every week and the rhythm section isn't doing anything interesting. . . well, that's your opinion, and you are more than welcome to express it. But you shouldn't be surprised or insulted to have it challenged. Ashley - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 20:29:40 +0100 From: Friedrich Feger Subject: Avant dogmatism (was: Down Home) Ashley wrote: >>It >>would be nice to think that those interested in the "avant-garde" are >>interested out of an openness to experience and an interest in expanding >>their awareness of things. But I suppose, more often than not, it is, as I >>posted earlier, a religion. . . with all the accompanying dogmas and >>commandments. In the case of the avant-garde, it helps create the >>appropriate life-style soundtrack for the "outsider" much as Kenny G and >>"smooth" jazz do for the yupsters. I'm sorry to have expected more. I was >>just wallowing in momentary wash of idealism. It didn't last long. Well, that's possibly too idealistic in deed. I have never experienced that much dogmatism in matters of musical taste and harsh disapproval of idioms as a whole as from advocators and artists of the European FreeJazz Scene (Alexander von Schlippenbach-early Gunther Hampel-and the like-style). They have been very avant-guarde once upon a time, and now many of them are more conservative than Bebop and Swing guys! Maybe every idiom attracts people with the same distribution of narrow-mindedness / openness... But that's an observation without the least normative content; and one thing makes me share the idelistic expectiation of Ashley: the postmodern character of "our" avant-guarde, the NY downtown people's music. To me, it is an essential component of e.g. Zorn's Music that he extensively serves himself using a very broad range of styles. For a long time I asked myself if Bill Frisell really likes Country music or if he only makes fun of it (not knowing anything of his Biography and having absolutely no relation to Country music myself). By now I'm pretty sure that he LOVES it, as I am sure that Zorn loves the styles he utilizes. To summarize, the openness towards other styles is an avant dogma ;-) Fritz. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 20:50:50 +0100 From: Friedrich Feger Subject: Off topic: Bay Area musicians query >From January 29 to February 16 I'm gonna stay in SF. Are there any avant-guarde musicians living in San Francisco? I would like to contact some. Jazz Vulgaris players are also welcome... Please answer me privately. Thanks in advance, Fritz. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 15:28:47 -0600 From: "Wilson, King of Prussia" Subject: Circular Breathing to all you discussing circular breathing here recently.... KENNY G MAKES THE GUINNESS BOOK OF RECORDS: American saxophonist KENNY G set a world record in New York yesterday for the longest sustained note. He held an A-Flat for 45-minutes, 47-seconds as hundreds of fans and reporters looked on at the J&R Music store in Manhattan. The record was certified by officials from the Guinness Book of World Records. read icculus - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 22:36:34 +0100 From: Yves Dewulf Subject: Herbie Who's Herbie ,singing on the Buckethead/Brain -disc pieces ? (Yes, I know Herbie is Buckethead's buddy, but who is he in real life?) Is it Buckethead himself ? (Anyway,it doesn't sound like Bootsy who was singing on Bucketheadland) - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 15:19:26 -0800 From: David Slusser Subject: zornjazz Very interesting, thoughtful threads on the list from Great Black Music through Great Jewish Music touching on Konitz and Gainsbourge raising all sorts of stimulating ideas. We all know music is sometimes overtly about something (Kristallnacht, Elegy) and sometimes not. When it's not, the background of the artist becomes increasingly relevant to some people. My enjoyment certainly isn't dependant on that, but sometimes another part of my brain gets curious. Interesting read: Reading Jazz by David Meltzer, Mercury House, SF This is a collection of essays written about jazz spanning the century. It documents the maddening attempts at defining the artform running through misguided patronism, racist invective, cultural imperilism, black nationalism and the classical avant garde - pretty much a parallel to the recent thread. Interesting CD: The Colossal Saxophone Sessions, Evidence, ECD 22130-2 featuring ZORN playing with LEE KONITZ (also has David Murray, Archie Shepp, Phil Woods, Frank Morgan, Dave Liebman Steve Coleman, Donald Harrison, Bennie Wallace in various configurations) Has this been torn apart on the zorn-list yet? I don't recommend it to list subscribers. As a saxophonist and jazz listener I do enjoy it, but the Zorn cuts (there are 3) may disappoint some. Konitz and Zorn front a rhythm section on the opening track, and each lay out respectable improvisations, but with no seeming interaction or fireworks. As a player, I suspect the rhythm section and the way it was recorded (another example of slickness?) as cause of my dissatisfaction. It has that commercial jazz close miked pinginess (someone mentioned antiseptic earlier) and a "heads-down" attitude in the rhythm section that definitely left the impression that the sax players might as well have phoned their parts in later. (Musicians on the list may have experienced this sense of dislocation when recording with headphones or having some of the band isolated in booths. Commercial jazz cleanliness can step on the communication.) Sure would like to hear Zorn and Konitz give it another try. Also of note: Lennie Tristano (featuring Konitz) on Capitol records 1949 Digression & Intuition - two free jazz group improvisations These are really nice IMHO, but the engineer at the session threw up his hands and walked out, later erasing 2 other improvs from the same session. I'm trying to locate Zorn's early work with Frank Lowe to follow this jazz thread. He's pretty casual about the sax and his involvement with jazz, but starting with the Voodoo (Sonny Clark memorial) album and then clearly with Masada he has displayed (what some call) jazz playing of the highest order. I suspect the roots go back pretty far. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 21:42:53 -0500 From: Tom Pratt Subject: solo guitar & ethnic orchestral What are your favorite solo guitar albums? I need more. I'm looking to find some orchestral music from somewhere that isn't U.S. or Europe. Anybody have some good recs???? -Tom Pratt - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 22:34:17 -0500 From: acapps@usit.net (ashley capps) Subject: Down Home >Ashley-- > > You're the shit!!!!! Way to stand up for yerself... I love the new >disc and those guys were being true nobs!!!! Take care, > > >Michelle > >PS. And you were completely right about everything!!!!! :-) Now this is the sort of thing that can really start to make me nervous. Ashley - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 22:35:20 -0500 From: acapps@usit.net (ashley capps) Subject: Down Home >Ash wrote of the avant-garde: > a religion. . . with all the accompanying dogmas and commandments. > >yes, and a good example of dogma/commandment is the implicit premisses >and value judgements within such loaded phrases as "narrow-minded and >rigid in their tastes." i doubt you expected more; likely, you simply >expected others on the list to agree with you. why dress it up? don't >pay much heed to opinions---they are, often as not, no more than >expressions of despair. >pax, >-b Well, Mr. Stubble, so now the snake starts to swallow its tail. This is akin to the "it's prejudiced to be prejudiced against prejudice" kind of argument. Cute, but no cigar. I don't recall any particular expectations when I entered into this, least of all that others would agree with me (it was already two to one against). Just a little dialogue. . . apologies for the despair. Ashley - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 22:40:30 -0500 From: acapps@usit.net (ashley capps) Subject: Medeski Martin & Wood 12/6 By the way, any of you who are close to Knoxville, Tennessee, might be interested in knowing that Medeski Martin & Wood will be in Knoxville this coming Saturday night at the Tennessee Theater at 8:00 p.m. For info, you can call the theater at (423) 522 - 1174. no opening acts. There are rumors that Zorn may come back with Mike Patton and Ikue Mori sometime in February. But this is still in the rumor phase. Just in case you might want to know and don't. Ashley - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 01:25:45 -0500 From: Steve Smith Subject: Re: solo guitar & ethnic orchestral Tom Pratt requested apples and mangoes: > What are your favorite solo guitar albums? I need more. Besides or including Derek Bailey? Most of his are exceptional; if you pressed me to pick a favorite I'd say "Drop Me Off at 96th" (Scatter) but I sure wouldn't want to be without "Domestic and Public Pieces" (Emanem) either. But then I do tend to buy them all. Ribot's recording of Zorn's "Book of Heads" (Tzadik) is pretty amazing. I also like Henry Kaiser's "Outside Aloha Pleasure" (Dexter's Cigar) a great deal. And I'm sure I should own Fred Frith's "Guitar Solos" (ESD) given how much I've enjoyed the few solo sets I've heard from him. Keith Rowe's "A Dimension of Perfectly Ordinary Reality" (Matchless) is a great way to hear this innovator outside of the AMM context. I also hear great things about Roger Smith, who has a solo disc I haven't heard on Emanem; I should be able to say more about him because I've got his duet album "S&M" on Incus, but as the "M" referred to in the title is a flute player, I'm not often drawn to listen. I'm very much taken with Jim O'Rourke's "Remove the Need" (Extreme)... I haven't heard his new album on Drag City but I have read great things about it. Sonny Sharrock's "Guitar" (Enemy) is very different than anything I've mentioned so far but is very, very beautiful. I depise Metheny's "Zero Tolerance for Silence" (DGC) but it definitely has its adherents, as I recently discovered on rec.music.bluenote, so you mmind oughta try to hear it before you spend money. I mainly add this to the list because some of the people who like this disc are people whose opinions I respect. Much different than all of the above is Marc Ducret's solo disc "(detail)" on Winter & Winter. It's much more linear and lyrical than any of the above, but I still find it pretty fascinating, with twists and bends all its own. It's Bailey but it is certainly aware of his aesthetic and employs some of his vocabulary from time to time. It's entirely acoustic. He's just done an electric solo album for Screwgun that will be ready by next March. And for those Americans who hate me for bring up a record they can't get anywhere, fear not. Winter & Winter has signed with Allegro Distribution with a proposed launch date of January 1998... ..just in time for the release of a new guitar duo record (yeah, I know, we're talking about solo records here, but it was a good segue) featuring the young French guitarist Noel Akchote playing duets with Marc Ribot and Eugene Chadbourne. Interestingly enough, much of the disc is comprised of Ornette Coleman tunes. It's also got a cover and a booklet full of photos by Noboyushi Araki ("Tokyo Lucky Hole"). I can't really say much about this as I'm just listening to it for the first time as I type this. I'm hearing some especially lovely playing from Eugene Chadbourne, so I hope that someone who knows more about his output can talk about his solo recordings, of which I have none. > I'm looking to find some orchestral music from somewhere that isn't U.S. > or Europe. Anybody have some good recs???? I like some of Chinese-American Tan Dun's orchestral music, though I think that gaudily packaged symphony released by Sony last year is atypical and missable. There was an orchestral disc on Koch Schwann that I'm sure is still around which united Varese-like sound masses with a distinctly Eastern sense of ritual theater. I've also heard some interesting music by Ge Gan Ru, but I don't think any orchestral music is currently available. There are several well known Japanese orchestral composers, though I personally don't know the work of many beyond Takemitsu and Mayazumi, neither of whom do all that much for me. Takemitsu does have a great many admirers, so I'm most likely in the minority here. Try out his "November Steps" and you'll have a reasonably good indication of whether he'll do it for you. The South African Kevin Volans and the Austalian Peter Sculthorpe come to mind, but despites fascinating dialects each of them speaks in a fairly European language. (I'm not 100% certain that Volans has written any orchestral music anyway...) Any other takers? Steve Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 22:35:44 -0800 From: "Schwitterz" Subject: Re: solo guitar & ethnic orchestral >I'm hearing some especially lovely playing from Eugene Chadbourne, so I hope that >someone who knows more about his output can talk about his solo recordings, >of which I have none. > >Steve Smith STRINGS on Intakt is 70+ minutes of especially lovely playing sans vocals. Highly recommended. s~Z - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 15:40:06 +0900 From: Akira Saito Subject: Re: solo guitar & ethnic orchestral Tom Pratt wrote: > What are your favorite solo guitar albums? I need more. I like Duck Baker's "Spinning Song", in which he plays Herbie Nichols' tunes. But, I forgot that label... This was released last year. Akira Saito - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 22:40:03 -0800 From: "Schwitterz" Subject: Re: solo guitar & ethnic orchestral >> I'm looking to find some orchestral music from somewhere that isn't U.S. >> or Europe. Anybody have some good recs???? How about Antarctica's Penguin Cafe Orchestra? - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V2 #184 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. 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